2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
52 members (Beowulf, 36251, cmb13, Chewbacca, CraiginNZ, CyberGene, anotherscott, David B, 15 invisible), 390 guests, and 485 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 7 of 20 1 2 5 6 7 8 9 19 20
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2230037 02/11/14 11:56 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
A
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
@Mark_C
I've already addressed your points. To add: I am still the only person in here to back my claim with evidence. Currently, those who believe pianists are of greater intelligence have absolutely no evidence, and therefore the claim is invalid. C'mon man, this is literally middle school level material...

It seems like a couple of you don't know what confirmation bias is. I encourage you to look it up so that you realize that's your only reason for arriving at such hilarious conclusions. "If you are a master pianist, you must be highly intelligent". Are you serious? Then show us the evidence. I am totally open to the claim, so long as you can provide evidence.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2230046 02/12/14 12:13 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
Originally Posted by Atrys
"If you are a master pianist, you must be highly intelligent".

Wait a minute, is anyone actually saying that?

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
JoelW #2230049 02/12/14 12:15 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Atrys
"If you are a master pianist, you must be highly intelligent".

Wait a minute, is anyone actually saying that?


I couldn't find any instance of it. Classic straw man argument.

Anyone who actually knows anything about statistics knows that they can be made to show pretty much anything you want them to.


Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2230050 02/12/14 12:18 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,002
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,002
Originally Posted by Atrys
@Mark_C
I've already addressed your points....

Bull. smile

How I know it's bull (among other ways): Because you're still talking about "evidence."

Look back at my post, if you care.

Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Atrys
"If you are a master pianist, you must be highly intelligent".

Wait a minute, is anyone actually saying that?

Good question. In fact, I think we'd have to say that what he said was a pretty unintelligent inference. grin

Intelligence, by the way, includes the ability to know what kinds of assertions are justified and what kinds aren't, and to know what can be concluded from something or not. Actually those kinds of things are a significant portion of what is tested in IQ tests. Pretty ironic, then, how Atrys is holding forth.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
JoelW #2230052 02/12/14 12:23 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
A
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Originally Posted by JoelW

Wait a minute, is anyone actually saying that?


Originally Posted by pianoloverus

many of the ones I know seem super intelligent


Originally Posted by pianoloverus

Hamelin, Chiu and Hough seem extremely intelligent


Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway

People who play piano well are usually smart (way above average)


Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway

Among famous pianists, there are many who strike me as geniuses.


Originally Posted by stores

The vast majority of professional pianists I know are highly intelligent


The list goes on and on.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So far, there is no evidence.

(also it looks like cast12 and keyboardklutz actually did provide some flavor of evidence that did not quite serve the purpose of showing advanced pianists are "highly intelligent")


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Mark_C #2230053 02/12/14 12:25 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
A
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Originally Posted by Mark_C

Pretty ironic, then, how Atrys is holding forth.

*cough* show us the evidence *cough*

Let's reiterate that confirmation bias is not evidence. Also, in case you haven't seen it, I have provided evidence. All you have to do is look at it. Silly boy.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2230055 02/12/14 12:27 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,426
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,426
What does "Atrys" mean?


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2230056 02/12/14 12:30 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
I find it slightly amusing that no one has yet to ask what constitutes intelligence.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
JoelW #2230057 02/12/14 12:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
A
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Originally Posted by JoelW
I find it slightly amusing that no one has yet to ask what constitutes intelligence.

All of my arguments are based on WAIS-IV composite IQ scores.



"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2230058 02/12/14 12:33 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by Mark_C

Pretty ironic, then, how Atrys is holding forth.

*cough* show us the evidence *cough*

Let's reiterate that confirmation bias is not evidence. Also, in case you haven't seen it, I have provided evidence. All you have to do is look at it. Silly boy.


Seriously? All the quotes you brought up are just people commenting based on their own experience and observations. In no way do these quotes support your (outrageous) claim that people are saying "If you are a master pianist, you must be highly intelligent".

That said: Being a master pianist is not a necessary condition for someone to be a genius; however, becoming truly at the top of Parnassus at things such as music or mathematics requires a level of cognition that many (if not most) people lack.

Last edited by Horowitzian; 02/12/14 12:34 AM.

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2230059 02/12/14 12:36 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
None of those quotes =

Originally Posted by Atrys
"If you are a master pianist, you must be highly intelligent".

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Horowitzian #2230060 02/12/14 12:37 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
A
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Originally Posted by Horowitzian
All the quotes you brought up are just people commenting based on their own experience and observations.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Horowitzian

becoming truly at the top of Parnassus at things such as music or mathematics requires a level of cognition that many (if not most) people lack.

See, now that is a reasonable claim. It doesn't mean they have significantly higher rates of IQ, but it is still a reasonable claim.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2230062 02/12/14 12:43 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
So, what exactly is your stance on this, Atrys?

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2230063 02/12/14 12:45 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,426
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,426
Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by JoelW
I find it slightly amusing that no one has yet to ask what constitutes intelligence.

All of my arguments are based on WAIS-IV composite IQ scores.



Nope.


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
JoelW #2230066 02/12/14 12:49 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
A
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Originally Posted by JoelW
So, what exactly is your stance on this, Atrys?

It's very simple!

There is no presented evidence to support the claim that professional pianists are highly intelligent (assuming WAIS-IV composite IQ scores beyond 2 standard deviations). Therefore, there is no reason to believe that professional pianists are highly intelligent.

Sure, they may excel in certain portions of the WAIS-IV, but this does not mean they have significantly higher composite scores.

Unless evidence to the claim can be provided, it's just speculation, poor reasoning (but the reasoning for believing that they may excel with certain things is totally fine), and confirmation bias.

Again, I'm not "hesitant" to believe or anything like that. There is just simply no reason to (yet).


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2230069 02/12/14 12:57 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,453
Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by Horowitzian
All the quotes you brought up are just people commenting based on their own experience and observations.

Exactly.


You missed the point. This is a public forum, not a peer reviewed journal.

Last edited by Horowitzian; 02/12/14 12:57 AM.

Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Horowitzian #2230072 02/12/14 12:59 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
A
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Originally Posted by Horowitzian

You missed the point. This is a public forum, not a peer reviewed journal.

Agreed. That's why my initial post was simply giving an evidence-based answer to the OP question.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2230075 02/12/14 01:01 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by JoelW
So, what exactly is your stance on this, Atrys?

It's very simple!

There is no presented evidence to support the claim that professional pianists are highly intelligent (assuming WAIS-IV composite IQ scores beyond 2 standard deviations). Therefore, there is no reason to believe that professional pianists are highly intelligent.

Sure, they may excel in certain portions of the WAIS-IV, but this does not mean they have significantly higher composite scores.

Unless evidence to the claim can be provided, it's just speculation, poor reasoning (but the reasoning for believing that they may excel with certain things is totally fine), and confirmation bias.

Again, I'm not "hesitant" to believe or anything like that. There is just simply no reason to (yet).

So this is what the fuss is about? Again, nobody actually said that great pianists necessarily have outstanding intellects.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
JoelW #2230078 02/12/14 01:04 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
A
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Originally Posted by JoelW

nobody actually said that great pianists necessarily have outstanding intellects. You're arguing with people who agree with you.

If this is truly the case, then this means that everyone acknowledges that there is no known (or at least presented) correlation between IQ and skill at piano. This is great! So long as people aren't arriving at crazy conclusions without any real reason, all is good in the world cool


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2230081 02/12/14 01:10 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,002
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,002
Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by JoelW

nobody actually said that great pianists necessarily have outstanding intellects. You're arguing with people who agree with you.

If this is truly the case, then this means that everyone acknowledges that there is no known (or at least presented) correlation between IQ and skill at piano. This is great! So long as people aren't arriving at crazy conclusions without any real reason, all is good in the world cool

Folks, what we're seeing here is a plain inability to reason very well.

Which perhaps explains a lot of the rest of what we've been getting from this source.

Atrys, you are sorely incorrect. And if you're not able to see what's wrong about it, which you aren't, then you are completely incapable of coming close to concluding any of what you've been putting forth.

Page 7 of 20 1 2 5 6 7 8 9 19 20

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Our October 2020 Free Piano Newsletter is Here!
---------------------
3,000,000+!
------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
New Topics - Multiple Forums
VI labs Black Friday deals
by newer player - 11/26/20 06:20 PM
Brahms suggestions
by Moo :) - 11/26/20 06:17 PM
Why isn’t there a bulletproof DP yet?
by AndyE - 11/26/20 05:31 PM
Why isn't there a waterproof DP yet?
by JoBert - 11/26/20 05:00 PM
Best Service Galaxy & Ivory sales
by newer player - 11/26/20 03:25 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics203,067
Posts3,027,518
Members99,381
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4