2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
46 members (accordeur, anotherscott, chopinetto, Abdol, David B, 20/20 Vision, bwv872, Anna B., 12 invisible), 406 guests, and 442 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 6 of 20 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 19 20
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2229807 02/11/14 05:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
P
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

Yes...Atrys is an engineer, not a lowly musician. (Which again begs the question - what is he doing over here trying to explain music to us...)

Yeah. We get it. You don't like me.

Do you get it? Perhaps not.

The point is, you constantly assert that everyone here is a hopeless idiot. I won't repeat the question.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Polyphonist #2229888 02/11/14 07:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
A
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

The point is, you constantly assert that everyone here is a hopeless idiot.

Lol! I have never said (nor implied) that either. There is definitely some failure to understand some governing factors of our world by a select few members, but that doesn't mean that "everyone here is a hopeless idiot".

You must be one of those people who like to constantly victimize themselves by extrapolating outrageous conclusions. Pity smile

Last edited by Atrys; 02/11/14 07:17 PM.

"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2229932 02/11/14 08:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
Originally Posted by Atrys
How can you all possibly continue to think that master (or professional) musicians are "intelligent". Look at the evidence I have posted.

If anything, they are not so far from average intelligence, and are actually less intelligent (insofar as a composite IQ) than their not-so-musically-skilled counterparts (not to mention their IQs are on the lower half of the median).

This is just confirmation bias. If you can present evidence that supports your ridiculous claims that master pianists are somehow magically enlightened with grand intelligence, only then do your claims have any merit. Until then, it's just poor speculation and confirmation bias.


Blah, blah, blah. You've no way of supporting such a claim. Period. I understand, however, that we all want to close the gap in some way...



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
stores #2229935 02/11/14 08:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
A
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Originally Posted by stores
You've no way of supporting such a claim.

I already have.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2229939 02/11/14 08:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by stores
You've no way of supporting such a claim.

I already have.


No, I'm sorry, you have not. You may BELIEVE it to be "evidence", "support", whatever you want to call it, but it's nothing more than a bunch of blah, blah, blah. There's one like you every six months or so, Atrys. Give it a rest.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2229940 02/11/14 08:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
A
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
I've shown you the evidence, yet all you can do is plug your ears and whine like a small child smile

It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2229941 02/11/14 08:25 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
This topic is so stupid, just like musicians.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2229944 02/11/14 08:28 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
P
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
Now you're starting to sound like another Atrys.

But you are correct that this is not the greatest conversation topic ever conceived....


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2229945 02/11/14 08:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
Originally Posted by Atrys
I can't force you to be right.


Quite true, since I already am.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Polyphonist #2229947 02/11/14 08:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
A
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Now you're starting to sound like another Atrys.

Yet another snipe! Keep going, you're on a roll!


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Polyphonist #2229948 02/11/14 08:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
... this is not the greatest conversation topic ever conceived....


+1



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2229950 02/11/14 08:30 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
Quote
Now you're starting to sound like another Atrys.
You didn't detect my sarcasm?

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
stores #2229951 02/11/14 08:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
A
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Originally Posted by stores

Quite true, since I already am.

[citation needed]

Nice try though. It's cute how, in the face of undeniable evidence, all you ever do is think you're "right" when you have nothing to support your claim, and all the evidence is against you wink


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2229953 02/11/14 08:32 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
P
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
Ah, the irony...


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2229954 02/11/14 08:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 517
H
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
H
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 517
Originally Posted by Atrys

Also, not once have I tried to explain musical ideas to anyone here. I wouldn't even dare to. You know why? Because I have little knowledge about things like that, and I can provide little to no value in a discussion about melodic lines, etc.


you tried to convince us that valentina is the most amazing pianist.

Don't babble too much about statistics. Just because you have a few college courses in the subject doesn't make you an expert. You're 20, so relax. No one is expecting you to be some engineering mastermind. Are you well on your way? Maybe, we are not hating.


Back to the original topic...
It's a strange question. I'm sure in some forum about model train building there is a similar thread "are the best model train builders highly intelligent?"

Well, to be the best in the world at anything probably requires some amount of intelligence. Even being the fastest 100m sprinter would require intelligence to be able to understand the analyzed data explained to you by your engineers because you have potentiometers all over your body during practice.

One thing we know for sure, is that it takes persistence and ambition. I can't think of any "best in the world" at any subject that relies on sheer talent. Hard work and ambition is perhaps the biggest culprit.

Starting very young and having being a pianist mapped out for you is probably just as important. The fastest motogp (motorcycle) racers were basically born on a motorcycle. It is part of them and their reflexes and instincts are one with the bike. There is no one competing in motogp who hasn't started as a child.

Same with piano. Sorry for late starters, including me. You can get close, but it will never be like 2nd nature which is required for truly polished playing I think.


Well spoken? Good at math, history, physics,street smart, I don't think have anything to do with it. Musical? Not necessary either. definite advantage, but not required. A truly musical person would end up composing, not playing other's music.

I have heard very young kids performing some of the most emotionally deep pieces. They have not suffered enough in life in order to understand those pieces they are playing, but, their playing was 100% convincing. Musicality can be learned, and mimicked! An excellent teacher is required for this.


Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Hamburg-D #2229955 02/11/14 08:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
P
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
Originally Posted by noambenhamou
I have heard very young kids performing some of the most emotionally deep pieces. They have not suffered enough in life in order to understand those pieces they are playing, but, their playing was 100% convincing. Musicality can be learned, and mimicked!

yawn


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Hamburg-D #2229956 02/11/14 08:37 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
A
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Ah, the irony...

I am literally the only person in this thread to support my claim with hard evidence. Your silly confirmation bias coupled with your hunch is not evidence.

What we know with the evidence provided so far: there is no reason to believe pianists of any skill are especially intelligent.

Originally Posted by noambenhamou

you tried to convince us that valentina is the most amazing pianist.


I never tried to do that either. What is wrong with you? You're inventing straw men and putting words into my mouth. No where did I ever try to convince anyone that Lisitsa is the "most amazing pianist".


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Polyphonist #2229959 02/11/14 08:38 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,177
Originally Posted by noambenhamou
I have heard very young kids performing some of the most emotionally deep pieces. They have not suffered enough in life in order to understand those pieces they are playing, but, their playing was 100% convincing. Musicality can be learned, and mimicked!

Define "young".

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
stores #2230019 02/11/14 11:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,001
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 23,001
I didn't think it was likely I would ever do this, but.... grin

Originally Posted by stores
No, I'm sorry, you have not. You may BELIEVE it to be "evidence", "support", whatever you want to call it, but it's nothing more than a bunch of blah, blah, blah.

+1


Atrys: We could call it "evidence" if we want to, but you have to understand, "evidence" doesn't necessarily prove something; it's merely one indicator. If you think "evidence" necessarily does prove a thing, you must have slept through part of whatever you learned on evidence and proof. smile

AND EVEN BESIDES THAT.... a few things:

-- Unless I don't know where to look, that thing you linked doesn't give anything about "professional pianists"; it gives a figure for Arts-Performance & Studio majors. I think it's a fair guess that the ones from among them who become PROFESSIONALS are higher than the average on just about anything we might mention, including intelligence.

-- ....and anyway, the average IQ even just of the college majors is pretty high. Yeah, it's below most of the other majors, but it's a number that I would indeed call "highly intelligent."

-- And finally.....As has been said, there are different kinds of intelligence, and they get manifested in greatly varying degrees on IQ tests. Two of my close friends (musicians) have been people that I know to be extremely intelligent, on anything that I'm sure most of us would regard as important, but never did particularly well on those tests. Their standardized test scores and class standings were so mediocre that they were funny, if you knew how intelligent these people really were. I would guess that it's probably unusually common among musicians and other kinds of artists to fare worse than their actual intelligence level on those kinds of tests, as it is among various other groups also, like (I think) athletes. The 'test' kind of stuff just isn't how their minds work, or how they want their minds to work. And BTW this isn't to say that those tests aren't meaningful or useful, just that what they measure isn't as synonymous with "intelligence" as you're trying to make it out to be.

But as per the above, even if it were, you still wouldn't be right.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2230025 02/11/14 11:45 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,194
K
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
K
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,194
I listened to a girl - probably no older than 8 years old - playing Liszt's valse-impromptu with tremendous technique, nuance, and clarity. While not the most emotionally-involved piece, her expression and phrasing (with an immaculate technique) was incredibly mature.


Working on:
Chopin - Nocturne op. 48 no.1
Debussy - Images Book II

Page 6 of 20 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 19 20

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Our October 2020 Free Piano Newsletter is Here!
---------------------
3,000,000+!
------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Is Vermeer the most 'musical' of the great artists?
by bennevis - 11/24/20 07:23 PM
New DP under 3000 euros
by Pullman12 - 11/24/20 03:21 PM
Recording device - Recommendations
by Kinimod - 11/24/20 02:52 PM
Your opinions on my digital mixer setup
by Abdol - 11/24/20 02:37 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics203,024
Posts3,026,807
Members99,363
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4