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New Here-Yamaha M450? #222936
10/11/04 06:51 AM
10/11/04 06:51 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4
Colorado
W
wyrefoxes Offline OP
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wyrefoxes  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4
Colorado
Hello,

I'm looking to purchase a piano for my 8 year old son who has been playing for 2 years. So far he's just been playing on a keyboard here at home.

One of the dealers in our town recommends a new Yamaha M450 which he's selling for $3400. Not knowing anything about pianos myself, I'm not sure if this is a decent piano to start on. We've looked at other pianos but my son has it in his head that he wants a Yamaha. I think it's because his teacher has one.

What others would anyone recommend for about the same price? I wouldn't care if it was used or new. I'm really not sure how long he will continue playing but even if one day he decides to stop with lessons I would like to start up. I played as a kid and have pretty much been reteaching myself with his lesson books.

We live in a fairly small city in Colorado so there aren't many piano retailers in the area. Not really fond of the idea of buying through the papers since I don't know what I would be looking for.

Thanks for any info. I have enjoyed reading through the posts and feel inspired to learn to play again.

Liz

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Re: New Here-Yamaha M450? #222937
10/11/04 10:21 AM
10/11/04 10:21 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 982
Oregon
S
sleepingcats Offline
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sleepingcats  Offline
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 982
Oregon
I was going to buy a M450 myself!

However, after playing other Yamaha uprights and comparing the tone, touch, etc., I had to get a larger one (U1). If you can possibly spend a little more, you'll be happier to have the better sound on a 48" upright, rather than the 44". To me, it was such a big difference! Even the T121 is 48" (however, it doesn't have the soft-close fallboard which is great to have so your son's fingers can't be smashed accidentally.

Just my Yamaha opinion. I tried other brands of uprights, but I really preferred the lighter touch of the Yamaha best.


"Cats make purrfect friends"
Re: New Here-Yamaha M450? #222938
10/11/04 01:25 PM
10/11/04 01:25 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 32
Springfield, MA
M
mch412 Offline
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mch412  Offline
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 32
Springfield, MA
I would agree with sleepingcats that your son would benefit from a larger piano than the M450. If you want to stay with Yamaha, the P22 or T116 may be a compromise to the U1. They are not quite as tall, but still give you a full sized studio action.


Former piano sales-weasel
Re: New Here-Yamaha M450? #222939
10/12/04 06:32 AM
10/12/04 06:32 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,953
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Steve Cohen Offline
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Steve Cohen  Offline
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Maryland/DC/No. VA
Your post indicates that you plan on having a piano "long-term". If this is the case, I would keep shopping. The M450 is Yamaha cheapest piano and its construction reflects that (no center backposts, lighter weight hammers, etc). Their better instruments are made in Japan, not in the USA, with the possible exception of the P22.

Your budget would buy a good used upright such as Chas. Walters or a Japanese- or Korean-made upright.


Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
Re: New Here-Yamaha M450? #222940
10/13/04 11:34 AM
10/13/04 11:34 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 806
Melbourne, Florida USA
TomtheTuner Offline
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TomtheTuner  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 806
Melbourne, Florida USA
Everything said in the above posts is true. BUT,,, the M450 is not a bad piano. The lack of back posts is a non-issue. The lighter hammers can be voiced by a tech to be quite mellow. The action and strings are fine. It's the case that makes it a lesser price. It is more decorative than the P22 or the U1. It has an "american" style. If that is important to you then ther is little difference between it and the M500, except the quality of the case.. I have tuned 100's of them. They are alright by me.


Maker of the TCHAMMER
www.thomasccobble.com

BUSY IS BETTER THAN BORED
Re: New Here-Yamaha M450? #222941
10/13/04 04:34 PM
10/13/04 04:34 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,953
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Steve Cohen Offline
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Steve Cohen  Offline
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Maryland/DC/No. VA
Tom, if the lack of backposts (there are actually two)is a non-issue, why does Yamaha and nearly every other manufacturer use 4-5 backposts.

One could argue that a heavier plate would make up for the lack of central backposts, but the plate in the M450 is the same, rather thin plate found in the M500s.

Look at any of the Japanese-made Yammies (as well as the P22)and you'll see a much heavier plate AND 4-5 backposts.


Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
Re: New Here-Yamaha M450? #222942
10/13/04 08:23 PM
10/13/04 08:23 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 9,217
Deep in Cherokee Country
Larry Offline
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Larry  Offline
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Deep in Cherokee Country
One could argue that a heavier plate would make up for the lack of central backposts, but the plate in the M450 is the same, rather thin plate found in the M500s.

If it's the same plate in an M500, then it is a full perimeter plate. If you have a full plate, you don't need backposts.

The cabinets are cheap on the M series, flakeboard with a paperthin veneer, just cheesy, in my opinion - but the piano is decent enough. I don't recommend the T series at all. Yamaha uses a panel of particleboard *behind the pinblock*!!! as a cost cutting space filler. I am just not comfortable with such a corner cutting tactic, personally.


Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless
Re: New Here-Yamaha M450? #222943
10/14/04 07:33 AM
10/14/04 07:33 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,953
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Steve Cohen Offline
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Steve Cohen  Offline
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Maryland/DC/No. VA
The why does Yamaha put the extra posts on ALL other models? And, why do the overwhelming percentage of other makers use 4-5 post backs even with the full-perimeter plates?

Also, in many instruments their are nose bolts connecting one of the central posts to the plate. I haven't looked at an M500 lately. Does it have the nose bolt?


Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
Re: New Here-Yamaha M450? #222944
10/14/04 10:37 AM
10/14/04 10:37 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 172
New Jersey
F
Fred Altenburg Offline
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Fred Altenburg  Offline
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F

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 172
New Jersey
And, why do the overwhelming percentage of other makers use 4-5 post backs even with the full-perimeter plates?

Czech out the smaller consoles in your new line.


I think manufactures sometimes add posts for decoration too. Anyone remember the iron posts on the Everetts?


Purveyor of fine Pianos and Organs
www.altenburgpiano.com
908 351 2000
Re: New Here-Yamaha M450? #222945
10/14/04 12:35 PM
10/14/04 12:35 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 806
Melbourne, Florida USA
TomtheTuner Offline
500 Post Club Member
TomtheTuner  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 806
Melbourne, Florida USA
Jeesh! The back posts are there for the stupid salesmen to use as a selling feature. When the 450m first came out it had no posts. The salesmen went bonkers!!! So they tacked on those boards and called them backposts. As far as the Japaneese versions, the People over there won' help t buy a piano without backposts. So they put them on and charge them a lot more YEN because the pianos are really over-built. Hmmmmm, This raises interesting questions concerning Yamaha's claims that the Gray Pianos from Japan are flawed and not any good for the North American Market, dosen't it?????????


Maker of the TCHAMMER
www.thomasccobble.com

BUSY IS BETTER THAN BORED
Re: New Here-Yamaha M450? #222946
10/14/04 03:14 PM
10/14/04 03:14 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,953
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Steve Cohen  Offline
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Posts: 10,953
Maryland/DC/No. VA
I would think that the use of backposts add enough to the overall cost of manufacturing to be signigicant. I doubt that the value of the marketing exceeds that cost. I believe that the use of backposts strengthens the assembly and is generally a true advantage when compared to a similarly built unit without. This is the case in the M450/M500 situation.


Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
Re: New Here-Yamaha M450? #222947
10/14/04 04:31 PM
10/14/04 04:31 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,195
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Axtremus  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,195
Are there engineering tests/measurements showing the necessity/advantages/disadvantages for backposts given certain plate parameters? Or are we simply seeing large numbers of pianos with backposts structurally out-lasting those without and correlating backposts with longevity/durability because of that? (If we're not seeing large numbers of pianos with backposts out-lasting those without, then the backposts are structurally unnecessary anyway.)

( It's hard to argue over pianos' structural strengths without crash-testing them. We might have to add "crash test ratings" for all pianos. laugh )

Re: New Here-Yamaha M450? #222948
10/14/04 07:06 PM
10/14/04 07:06 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 9,217
Deep in Cherokee Country
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Larry  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 9,217
Deep in Cherokee Country
There is no need for a full perimeter plate and backposts both. That's the whole point of a full perimeter plate, for goodness sakes. Tomthetuner is correct - backposts in a piano with a full perimeter plate are there to give the salesman something to talk about. That's all.


Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless
Re: New Here-Yamaha M450? #222949
10/14/04 07:11 PM
10/14/04 07:11 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,431
Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
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Surrey, B.C.
On the other hand, companies, especially Japanese or Korean, wouldn't spend one extra dime today on raw material costs other than absolutely necessary.

They've been cutting things out on everything else - even soundboard quality,a much more crucial area in every respect - so everybody go figure what this is all about! :rolleyes:

norbert


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
Re: New Here-Yamaha M450? #222950
10/14/04 08:47 PM
10/14/04 08:47 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,195
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Axtremus  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,195
Larry, if I take your statement and TomTheTuner's statement at face value, then I'd have to believe that models with full perimeter plate AND back posts have inefficient and wasteful designs done in the name of marketing -- and people buying them are paying extra for the marketing costs rather than for the musical instrument. Not that I have a problem believing that, I just hope to dig a little deeper before I accept that conclusion. wink

Quote
Norbert wrote: "On the other hand, companies, especially Japanese or Korean, wouldn't spend one extra dime today on raw material costs other than absolutely necessary."
Good for them. Why waste raw material? Why spend $10 to build something that can be built with $5? So you can charge $20 extra? Once you set a design goal, spend just enough to accomplish it. Anything more would be sheer waste. Might look good on a brochure bragging about costly features, but still inefficient and wasteful. Now why would we want to encourage inefficient and wasteful design/manufacturing -- especially when shoppers are already busting their budgets left and right?

Quote
Norbert wrote: "[The Japanese and Korean manufacturers have] been cutting things out on everything else - even soundboard quality,a much more crucial area in every respect - so everybody go figure what this is all about!"
OK, I am thinking about this:

[You have not back that statement up with any detail safe that example on soundboard quality (and you haven't even say what constitutes soundboard quality), but let's just say I take your words at face value.]

1. Have they cut things that would degrade the performance and/or durability of the pianos (vis a vis their original design goals for the models on which they have made cuts)? If not, they are improving efficiency -- and that's a good thing.

2. Are they the only ones doing it? Could it be that there are global constraints in certain raw material that leads to every one cutting back on certain aspects of their products? (You mentioned soundboard - it has been brought up many times that the world is running out of "premium grade" soundboard, however that's defined/measured, and that's a common problem for every maker, not just for the Japanese/Korean.)

3. After all is said and done, when we assess the impacts of the alleged "cuts," -- what's the impact to the buyers? What's "bad" about the specific "cuts"? May be the buyers might actually prefer the cost savings provided by those "cuts" once they understand the trade-offs involved.

We often tell people not to shop features, but to listen to the pianos and judge the pianos by themselves. So, after all the "cuts" are made, if the pianos still perfrom just as wonderfully -- is that not a WIN-WIN situation for consumers and manufacturers?

The way I look at it, there are good "cuts," and there are bad "cuts," and I would appreciate you pros be specific and educate the buying masses which is which.

Re: New Here-Yamaha M450? #222951
10/15/04 04:15 AM
10/15/04 04:15 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 91
Home
wave the chicken Offline
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wave the chicken  Offline
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Jeesch,

All she wanted to to is buy a piano for her 8 year old to play.....

Yamaha's hold their value. Trade up if necessary. By then she will have a better sense of pianos and what may be a good purchase.

Re: New Here-Yamaha M450? #222952
10/15/04 03:56 PM
10/15/04 03:56 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 806
Melbourne, Florida USA
TomtheTuner Offline
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TomtheTuner  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 806
Melbourne, Florida USA
As posted by Wave the Chicken
"Jeesch,
All she wanted to to is buy a piano for her 8 year old to play.....
Yamaha's hold their value. Trade up if necessary. By then she will have a better sense of pianos and what may be a good purchase.::"

Yup, what he/she just said. wow


Maker of the TCHAMMER
www.thomasccobble.com

BUSY IS BETTER THAN BORED

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