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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
BruceD #2229293 02/10/14 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
If it annoys you that some people comment negatively on the reviving of old threads, how about just ignoring them?

You're usually much smarter than this. grin

Bruce, I said in my prior post why. The re-upping of old threads is almost always a result of a post by a new member, and the "negative commenting" is (whether so intended or not) a slam at them. Which isn't very welcoming, and perhaps discourages other would-be members from even trying. After all, we have many more readers than members, and I modestly offer that it's better to attract them than to repel them.

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2229295 02/10/14 11:15 PM
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Every sentence fragment begs for completion. grin


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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Polyphonist #2229309 02/10/14 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Every sentence fragment begs for completion. grin

I usually just say it, every sentence fragment begs for


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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
phantomFive #2229310 02/10/14 11:55 PM
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but then I'm not a professional pianist, so maybe I'm not intelligent enough.


Poetry is rhythm
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2229316 02/11/14 12:00 AM
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That must be it. grin


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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2229355 02/11/14 01:43 AM
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I'm not a professional, but last I checked my I.Q. several years ago I scored between 136-144 on multiple tests. Although, I'll be honest, I do act like an idiot sometimes...

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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2229375 02/11/14 03:26 AM
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Many people hide their high IQ because of bullying or fear of being bullied (particularly among peers, but not only), so even if some professional pianists actually know their IQ they probably won't reveal it, maybe not because of fear of being bullied if they are asserted adults, but it is not something people usually reveal to strangers, let alone media... So even if they know their IQ we won't know.
Being a professional pianist is something that requires high intelligence, but not only that (like in maths for example). High sensitivity and musicianship are also important of course (but I guess this has already been said in this thread). AND if you want to be a professional pianist you also need a high EQ because of all the stress associated with performing publicly etc. So IQ,EQ and musicianship.



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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2229744 02/11/14 04:17 PM
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Every professional classical musician is intelligent, not sure if highly/super intelligent, but definitely above average.

One can't just play bach, haydn or mendelssohn without understanding the complexities in their music and the differences between their compositional styles. I'm talking about the kids who have to take mandatory piano lessons in school, and practice just because their parents tell them to. Or the teenage girls who worship the "great" pop icons like Bieber and Gaga. *cringe*

Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2229750 02/11/14 04:26 PM
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How can you all possibly continue to think that master (or professional) musicians are "intelligent". Look at the evidence I have posted.

If anything, they are not so far from average intelligence, and are actually less intelligent (insofar as a composite IQ) than their not-so-musically-skilled counterparts (not to mention their IQs are on the lower half of the median).

This is just confirmation bias. If you can present evidence that supports your ridiculous claims that master pianists are somehow magically enlightened with grand intelligence, only then do your claims have any merit. Until then, it's just poor speculation and confirmation bias.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2229751 02/11/14 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
Master pianists would probably perform pretty well in certain portions of the WAIS-IV, but don't expect anything from the final score. Being a master pianist does not imply any kind of significant gain in a composite IQ score.


Perhaps, but I've never known a master pianist who wasn't highly intelligent. smile

Quote
If you look here: http://www.statisticbrain.com/iq-estimates-by-intended-college-major/

You'll actually find that "Arts-Performance & Studio" majors are pretty low on the spectrum, with an average IQ of 114.


Interesting as the "stats" might be, they are IMHO completely meaningless. smile "Arts-Performance & Studio" majors are not "master pianists." And, for that matter, the "arts" as a category encompasses a vast variety of endeavors.....not just musical performance.

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Being a master pianist does not mean you are necessarily highly intelligent. However, the elite in things such as math, the sciences, and engineering can be considered to be "highly intelligent" (insofar as a composite IQ score).


And isn't it interesting that many mathematicians, scientists and engineers are also highly skilled musicians. crazy



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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Carey #2229756 02/11/14 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by carey

Perhaps, but I've never known a master pianist who wasn't highly intelligent.

Correlation is not causation.

Originally Posted by carey

Interesting as the "stats" might be, they are IMHO completely meaningless.

Stats are only meaningless to people who don't understand them.

Originally Posted by carey

"Arts-Performance & Studio" majors are not "master pianists."

Agreed, but the sample space has enough overlap. If you performed more statistical analysis and hypothesis testing (p and z) you'd get a more accurate answer, but it will be very similar to what has already been said.

Originally Posted by carey

And isn't it interesting that many mathematicians, scientists and engineers are also highly skilled musicians.

Correlation is not causation.

This is just nonsense. No evidence as usual. So far the only evidence presented shows that musicians do not have especially higher composite IQs. It might be hard to bite the bullet, but facts are facts.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2229758 02/11/14 04:34 PM
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Correlation is not causation.


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Polyphonist
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2229762 02/11/14 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
How can you all possibly continue to think that master (or professional) musicians are "intelligent". Look at the evidence I have posted.


Evidence???? What evidence????

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If anything, they are not so far from average intelligence, and are actually less intelligent (insofar as a composite IQ) than their not-so-musically-skilled counterparts (not to mention their IQs are on the lower half of the median).


The stats focus on college majors in all areas of the arts. NOT professional musicians - or master pianists.

Quote
This is just confirmation bias. If you can present evidence that supports your ridiculous claims that master pianists are somehow magically enlightened with grand intelligence, only then do your claims have any merit. Until then, it's just poor speculation and confirmation bias.


I dunno. It takes a certain amount of "intelligence" to learn, maintain and perform (by memory) a vast repertoire of complex musical works either as a soloist or soloist with orchestra in front of a paying audience. And, of course, many "master pianists" earn Doctorates - which require educational background and knowledge of a variety of subjects (including music theory, history and foreign languages) well beyond just playing an instrument.

Quote
Until then, it's just poor speculation and confirmation bias.


Sort of like the gross assumptions underlying the so-called "stats." grin


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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Carey #2229774 02/11/14 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by carey

The stats focus on college majors in all areas of the arts. NOT professional musicians - or master pianists.

I don't think you have a well enough understanding of statistics to understand the extrapolation that can be made from the data.

Originally Posted by carey

I dunno. It takes a certain amount of "intelligence" to learn, maintain and perform (by memory) a vast repertoire of complex musical works either as a soloist or soloist with orchestra in front of a paying audience.

You're just saying things...there is still no evidence or data being presented. Imagine if scientists and engineers operated like you: "Well, we think this solid rocket booster is enough for lift off. We haven't done the math or checked the data, but I have a hunch!"

Originally Posted by carey

Sort of like the gross assumptions underlying the so-called "stats."

Again, stats are only meaningless to people who don't understand them. Anyone here that has taken upper division statistics courses should understand that there is much more to statistics than you think there is.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
pianoloverus #2229776 02/11/14 04:59 PM
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Well - since we're focused on the "stats" - according to the research there seems to be a clear correlation between the SAT Quantitative Score and IQ - whereas, the SAT Verbal Scores tend to be rather "average" across the board among all college majors. What does that tell us about "intelligence?" grin



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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2229780 02/11/14 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
Again, stats are only meaningless to people who don't understand them. Anyone here that has taken upper division statistics courses should understand that there is much more to statistics than you think there is.


I'll give you that. BUT I fear there is much more to the ARTS (and advanced musical performance) than you apparently seem to think there is. grin

P.S. Are you having as much fun with this discussion as I am??

Last edited by carey; 02/11/14 05:05 PM.

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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Carey #2229781 02/11/14 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by carey

there seems to be a clear correlation between the SAT Quantitative Score and IQ - whereas, the SAT Verbal Scores tend to be rather "average" across the board among all college majors. What does that tell us about "intelligence?"

I think all we can draw from that observation is that composite IQ scores are not necessarily associated with Verbal SAT scores.

How about that Verbal SAT score spike for Philosophy majors! That might explain why students (myself included) always seem to be captivated and focused during philosophy lectures :P The philosophy professors are very articulate people.

Last edited by Atrys; 02/11/14 05:07 PM.

"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
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Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Carey #2229794 02/11/14 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by Atrys
Again, stats are only meaningless to people who don't understand them. Anyone here that has taken upper division statistics courses should understand that there is much more to statistics than you think there is.


I'll give you that. BUT I fear there is much more to the ARTS (and advanced musical performance) than you apparently seem to think there is. grin

Yes...Atrys is an engineer, not a lowly musician. (Which again begs the question - what is he doing over here trying to explain music to us...)


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Polyphonist
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Polyphonist #2229797 02/11/14 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist

Yes...Atrys is an engineer, not a lowly musician. (Which again begs the question - what is he doing over here trying to explain music to us...)

Yeah. We get it. You don't like me. Your sniping is pretty childish though.

Also, not once have I tried to explain musical ideas to anyone here. I wouldn't even dare to. You know why? Because I have little knowledge about things like that, and I can provide little to no value in a discussion about melodic lines, etc. Your constant sniping gets old quick, especially since it's always about something trivial or nonexistent.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Are professional pianists highly intelligent?
Atrys #2229801 02/11/14 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by carey
There seems to be a clear correlation between the SAT Quantitative Score and IQ - whereas, the SAT Verbal Scores tend to be rather "average" across the board among all college majors. What does that tell us about "intelligence?"
I think all we can draw from that observation is that composite IQ scores are not necessarily associated with Verbal SAT scores.


So - in essence, reading comprehension and writing skills have little bearing on one's overall IQ ?? Quite frankly, I find that difficult to believe. Perhaps the composite IQ scores cited in the study are only measuring a certain kind of "intelligence." ha

Quote
How about that Verbal SAT score spike for Philosophy majors! That might explain why students (myself included) always seem to be captivated and focused during philosophy lectures :P The philosophy professors are very articulate people.


Interesting to note that the verbal scores for "Arts - History, Theory, Critical Theory" and "Other Humanities & Arts" are fairly respectable as well. smile


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