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Re: VPC1 DPorn [Re: bennevis] #2226505
02/05/14 07:19 PM
02/05/14 07:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 431
St. Louis, MO, USA
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joflah Offline OP
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joflah  Offline OP
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St. Louis, MO, USA
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by joflah
Originally Posted by Phlox
Jack, can you put the letoff back in ?? If you ever want it in again ??


They can be put back in. I've gone ahead and removed them on all keys and don't miss them.

If you didn't want the let-off feel in the first place, why buy the VPC-1 at all?

There're plenty of cheaper DPs which don't have this pesky feature - like all Clavinovas (other than the most recent). Great, smoooooth feel......like vicuņa fur wink.

Just sayin' .


I think there's more to the keyboard than that "feature". I wanted a good quality keyboard where all my money was paying for keyboard, none for obsolescent sound generators.


Jack
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Re: VPC1 DPorn [Re: dire tonic] #2226508
02/05/14 07:23 PM
02/05/14 07:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 431
St. Louis, MO, USA
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joflah Offline OP
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Originally Posted by dire tonic
I think I'll be doing this sooner or later.

Do you find now that the playing weight is generally lighter or would you say - apart from the absence of the notch - there's no perceptible weight difference? I realise that the initial key travel is going to be unaltered but I imagined some energy would be absorbed when passing the let-off widget.


I don't perceive a weight difference. I may have mentioned before that the way the plastic tab reacts, it get pushed aside by the key and presents no perceptible resistance, unless the velocity is so low that the tab has time to bend inward and bunch up, and then it's perceptible, but the added resistance is small and inconsistent.


Jack
Re: VPC1 DPorn [Re: joflah] #2226514
02/05/14 07:31 PM
02/05/14 07:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,087
uk south
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dire tonic Offline
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I remember you said that. I was trying to get my head round the idea that something was pushed aside with zero energy loss but I can see I'd need to look at the action in motion to grasp that.

Still, no notch when playing pp-ppp. That's gotta feel nice!

Tempting.

Re: VPC1 DPorn [Re: joflah] #2226516
02/05/14 07:39 PM
02/05/14 07:39 PM
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bennevis Offline
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Originally Posted by joflah

I think there's more to the keyboard than that "feature". I wanted a good quality keyboard where all my money was paying for keyboard, none for obsolescent sound generators.

Kawai put a lot of its hard-earned R&D money towards reproducing the 'authentic' acoustic grand action - which of course includes the let-off simulation.

You're probably paying more to get that (which you then take such effort to remove and void the guarantee...) than it costs Yamaha to put in all those 'obsolete' sound generators (which really are obsolete, as so many here have astutely observed).....


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
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Re: VPC1 DPorn [Re: joflah] #2226533
02/05/14 08:08 PM
02/05/14 08:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 48
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dbudde Online content
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Originally Posted by joflah


I wanted a good quality keyboard where all my money was paying for keyboard, none for obsolescent sound generators.


+++

Re: VPC1 DPorn [Re: joflah] #2226537
02/05/14 08:11 PM
02/05/14 08:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,746
Vancouver, B.C.
Vid Offline
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I posted about the "let off" in the Piano Forum to see what the acoustic crowd thought about it. One of them likened it to a mechanical artifact not unlike what you get with a manual transmission. If the transition of changing gears was entirely seamless you would lose some of the tactile feedback you feel when engaging and releasing the clutch.

Anyways, I know not everyone agrees a simulated action should have the "let off" artifact but I'm one of the ones who prefers it and is glad Kawai added it. I find it puzzling that someone would remove it but to each their own.


  • Schimmel Upright
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Re: VPC1 DPorn [Re: bennevis] #2226541
02/05/14 08:14 PM
02/05/14 08:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 431
St. Louis, MO, USA
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joflah Offline OP
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joflah  Offline OP
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St. Louis, MO, USA
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by joflah

I think there's more to the keyboard than that "feature". I wanted a good quality keyboard where all my money was paying for keyboard, none for obsolescent sound generators.

Kawai put a lot of its hard-earned R&D money towards reproducing the 'authentic' acoustic grand action - which of course includes the let-off simulation.

You're probably paying more to get that (which you then take such effort to remove and void the guarantee...) than it costs Yamaha to put in all those 'obsolete' sound generators (which really are obsolete, as so many here have astutely observed).....


Have you tried a VPC1 keyboard, to see if the "letoff" does what it does for you on an acoustic piano?


Jack
Re: VPC1 DPorn [Re: Vid] #2226547
02/05/14 08:24 PM
02/05/14 08:24 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,836
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Online content
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Originally Posted by Vid
Anyways, I know not everyone agrees a simulated action should have the "let off" artifact but I'm one of the ones who prefers it and is glad Kawai added it. I find it puzzling that someone would remove it but to each their own.


Vid, I'm inclined to agree with you. However, these things are highly subjective. If the folks that have 'disabled' the let-off simulation or removed it entirely prefer the keyboard feel, all power to them!

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: VPC1 DPorn [Re: joflah] #2226561
02/05/14 08:41 PM
02/05/14 08:41 PM
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bennevis Offline
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Originally Posted by joflah

Have you tried a VPC1 keyboard, to see if the "letoff" does what it does for you on an acoustic piano?

To feel the association between the let-off simulation and the sound and how the two connects with my playing, I'd have to play the VPC-1 connected to a computer and software, which is impossible on three counts: I) I have no idea how to do it myself (I bought my first ever home computer only a year ago, and am still learning how to use it), 2) I have no time for such frippery - I just want to sit down at my piano and play music, and 3) I don't know of any DP store that has the VPC-1 connected in this way for customers to try out for themselves.

But I've played on many Kawai DPs with similar actions, and all make use of the let-off simulation in the same way as acoustics would, or rather, behave the same way, so I have no doubt that the VPC-1 would do the same.

Still, if you prefer a wholly artificial piano action (- even uprights have the let-off feel), you're welcome to it - even if you've already paid for the (simulated) 'authentic' action. But you may well regret the dismemberment, when you get better at piano playing and learn how to make the 'let-off feel' work for you......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: VPC1 DPorn [Re: bennevis] #2226591
02/05/14 09:38 PM
02/05/14 09:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 431
St. Louis, MO, USA
J
joflah Offline OP
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St. Louis, MO, USA
Originally Posted by bennevis
But you may well regret the dismemberment, when you get better at piano playing and learn how to make the 'let-off feel' work for you......


In that unlikely event, I can restore the keyboard to its original state in half an hour.


Jack
Re: VPC1 DPorn [Re: Kawai James] #2226615
02/05/14 10:27 PM
02/05/14 10:27 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,834
doremi Offline
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
...If the folks that have 'disabled' the let-off simulation or removed it entirely prefer the keyboard feel, all power to them!

Cheers,
James
x

How to go about it, though? For those of us who want the smoooth vicuņa feel without having the skill to remove the let-off simulation? Would Kawai (or other DP manufacturers) provide us with an option to have or not to have the let-off simulation?


I am 'doremi' because I play scales smile
Had I progressed to playing chords,
I would be 'domisol' shocked
Re: VPC1 DPorn [Re: doremi] #2226655
02/05/14 11:45 PM
02/05/14 11:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,836
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Online content
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Originally Posted by doremi
Would Kawai (or other DP manufacturers) provide us with an option to have or not to have the let-off simulation?


I think it's rather unlikely. Not only would it complicate production and stock control, it also undermines the work of the keyboard action engineers.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: VPC1 DPorn [Re: Kawai James] #2226667
02/05/14 11:59 PM
02/05/14 11:59 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,159
Sydney, Australia
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sullivang Online blank
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,159
Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted by Kawai James
it also undermines the work of the keyboard action engineers.


In the same way Steingraeber's option of knuckle rollers undermines the work of the piano inventor, Bartolomeo Cristofori? smile

Greg.



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