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#2225575 - 02/04/14 04:13 AM any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords?  
Joined: Feb 2014
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badtemperedclavier Offline
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(admin may u plz del my post in Composer's Lounge...
not mean to spam, just to switch to a more popular forum
and these are all piano pieces, it seem to be appropriate to discuss here)

i feel a bit lost
plz anyone
plz try to clarify the function/role of these dim chords
i dont think i have seen any dim chord function in that way before, maybe i made some mistakes?
(using Steven Laitz & Edward Aldwell's texts)

or are they too chromatic to analysis?

i marked a b c for these pieces

for a: just start at bar9, in Em key,
we have bar 9&10 : i-iio6-i6-v6
the g#dim (E dom7) in bar11, whats that? 2nd inversion dim on #iii ?!
it sounds weird
anyway the F in next beat likely be Neapolitan 6/4...

for b: this piece start with an augmented Eb
but the key should be Eb
then what the hack is the chord at the end of bar3 ?
its enharmonic equ. to c# dim.
what is the correct spell & function ?

for c: it should be in Gm key
we got Gm-Dm-C#dim then back to Gm again
so..dim chord on #iv ??
it seem a bit wrong

any reply, as well as book suggestion is appreciated


http://postimg.org/image/ss7ici2yt/
http://postimg.org/image/tnsyuvf47/
http://postimg.org/image/97vs5bdr5/

edit:
in the original post i got a reply
Originally Posted by kdjupdal
A dim chord often function as a dominant, more spesifically as a secondary dominant

For your "A" example: A secondary dominant to the subdominant, (actually the Neapolitan subdominant). That is, an E7 going to Aminor


the following is my thought
Originally Posted by badtemperedclavier
well...
from my understanding
a 2nd dominant moves to its tonic
otherwise, in most cases, that 2nd function is invalid

the e in bar11 right hand part
its..well.. very likely to be a passing note
connecting f & d#
rather than a real chord member

plz..feel free to correct my any mistakes

edit: by the 'e', i mean the last note of bar11

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#2225601 - 02/04/14 06:53 AM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: badtemperedclavier]  
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ando Offline
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Section A: bar 11, you can see an E in the melody line, so it's actually more of a E7 chord. E7 makes it a more dramatic motion to the bII chord. Note that there is a descending chromatic bass line from bar 10 to bar 12, so that's why it needed to be a 7th chord. This one isn't a secondary dominant because it doesn't go to Amin. It moves in parallel, I7 to bII.

Section B: That chord is a diminished 7th with the 5th omitted. It's a secondary (applied) diminished chord to the following Fmin chord. usually written viio/ii

Section C: That chord is viio of iv viio6/iv. The mistake you are making is trying to relate everything to the original key.

The chords you are having trouble with tend to be secondary chords (also known as "applied chords") to the chord after it. They don't relate specifically to the original key, but are there for their specific relationship to the chord that comes afterwards.

Hope that helps.

#2225602 - 02/04/14 07:02 AM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: badtemperedclavier]  
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compianist1 Offline
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''the g#dim (E dom7) in bar11, whats that? ''

I had a quick look. If I didn't make any mistakes in sight reading:

yes it's a secondary dominant. Like the user you mentioned said ( I didn't read the other replies), a dim chord can be a secondary dominant. Here g# dim resolves to a min.

The f's are a delayed resolution, an embellishment.

#2225605 - 02/04/14 07:08 AM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: badtemperedclavier]  
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compianist1 Offline
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''then what the hack is the chord at the end of bar3 ?
its enharmonic equ. to c# dim.
what is the correct spell & function ?''

c# dim (or dim 7 sort of implied)

I didn't play what came after, but it's a secondary dominant, same case as before where a dim chord is used instead of a dom7. It's transitioning in the supertonic key.

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#2225606 - 02/04/14 07:12 AM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: compianist1]  
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ando Offline
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Originally Posted by compianist1
''the g#dim (E dom7) in bar11, whats that? ''

I had a quick look. If I didn't make any mistakes in sight reading:

yes it's a secondary dominant. Like the other user said, a dim chord can be a secondary dominant. Here g# dim resolves to a min.

The f's are a delayed resolution, an embellishment.


In my opinion, the E is too short to hear it as an Amin. That E is a passing tone between bII and the leading tone in bar 12. That's how it sounded to me just now when I played it. In theory it could be seen the way you described, but the F chord lasts for 3/4 of that beat, the E note is only 1 quarter of it. I don't think the ear gets a long enough chance to perceive it as an Amin chord.

#2225607 - 02/04/14 07:17 AM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: badtemperedclavier]  
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compianist1 Offline
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''for c: it should be in Gm key''

Are you sure? To me the key sounds like Dm. I see no indication whatsoever of the key being in Gm, except the key signature, which means little unless I look at the whole thing. If the excerpt you posted is in the middle of the piece or something, then chances are it's modulation to the dominant minor or something.

#2225618 - 02/04/14 08:00 AM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: compianist1]  
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ando Offline
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Originally Posted by compianist1
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by compianist1
''the g#dim (E dom7) in bar11, whats that? ''

I had a quick look. If I didn't make any mistakes in sight reading:

yes it's a secondary dominant. Like the other user said, a dim chord can be a secondary dominant. Here g# dim resolves to a min.

The f's are a delayed resolution, an embellishment.


In my opinion, the E is too short to hear it as an Amin. That E is a passing tone between bII and the leading tone in bar 12. That's how it sounded to me just now when I played it. In theory it could be seen the way you described, but the F chord lasts for 3/4 of that beat, the E note is only 1 quarter of it. I don't think the ear gets a long enough chance to perceive it as an Amin chord.


Interesting. When I read your last reply, I have read your first, and I was very suprised at how contrived it all seemed. Nevertheless, I played and analyzed the whole thing again, because my sight reading is way behind my harmony knowledge and thus I have to be more careful when I read, than the average sight-reader.

So, I checked the whole thing again, and again I though: 'wow! this person is giving the passage a VERY complicated explanation'. It's completely off track, and here's why.

First off, and I have not a shadow of doubt, I -hear- no bII chord anywhere in the passage. Because there isn't one. To be a bII chord, it would have to SOUND like one, and it doesn't. The reason is simple: the chord that comes before gives the chord that comes later no power to be a bII chord. It completely destroys that function. A bII chord sounds like one because the preceding chord can allow it, not just because it happens to sit on a bII degree. There's absolutely no bII chord there, even if it -looks- like it on paper.

Secondly, you say that 'the E sounds too short to be heard as a min'. I don't understand what that implies to you, but I can hear that it's just a secondary dominant. The F is an accented dissonance because it makes a fourth with the bass. If the a min would be in root position, the F would make absolutely no sense, it would produce no dissonance and thus would sound too weak and have no musical weight. The reason why it's there is that it makes a dissonance. It's an embellishment, a delayed resolution.


You're making things too personal, too emotional. Like you are offended by something that YOU think is complex (but actually is very simple), or by somebody challenging you. I was respectful towards you, but you are losing it. I won't bother discussing anything with you.

#2225620 - 02/04/14 08:08 AM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: ando]  
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compianist1 Offline
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ah ah, are you frigging serious? I have never felt offended, I simply told you what I saw in the music. I wasn't mocking you or anything, I was being genuine.

And -I- am the one offended or taking it personally? Ah ah, you are talking to me but you are really talking to yourself. The reality is, you know I am right, but you are throwing a little tantrum because you can't take it. And I am the one who makes it personal? You are talking to yourself all the way.

''I won't bother discussing anything with you.''

As I would lose out what, some great insights? You have no idea of what the heck you are talking about, you are incapable of analyzing a fairly straightforward chord progression, and instead of learning something from what I took the time to write, your inner child and vulnerable ego feels bruised, that's the explanation for your ridiculous and childish reaction.

Grow up, my friend. And keep studying harmony, you need to do that a lot more than I do.

What a ridiculous waste of time. That's the last time I will ever bother again.

Well, as Beethoven said to someone who didn't know what he was talking about: ' Anyways. God be with you'. (translation: I don't care) smile


#2225621 - 02/04/14 08:12 AM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: badtemperedclavier]  
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badtemperedclavier Offline
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thanks for reply guys
nice discussion
and yes,
from the result
i seem to be having problem with applied chords

so..section A is quite troublesome
still left to be discussed

and section B, no problems now, fully understand

but section c
embarrassing, viio6/iv is a bit unclear for me
what is the iv? a D chord?

and yes section c is the opening of a piece

edit: i played A&C
and plz, i beg to have a calm, reasonable discussion

#2225625 - 02/04/14 08:23 AM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: badtemperedclavier]  
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compianist1 Offline
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so, after all I wrote, you STILL don't understand?

You know what, I deleted my reply entirely. PS. a good occasion for the person with a fragile ego problem, to delete his reply, so that my reply won't be visible. That will leave his reply, a rubbish analysis and completely off the track, but what do I care?

God be with both of you...

#2225629 - 02/04/14 08:34 AM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: compianist1]  
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badtemperedclavier Offline
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Originally Posted by compianist1
so, after all I wrote, you STILL don't understand?

You know what, I deleted my reply entirely. PS. a good occasion for the person with a fragile ego problem, to delete his reply, so that my reply won't be visible. That will leave his reply, a rubbish analysis and completely off the track, but what do I care?

God be with both of you...

yes i admit i find it hard to connect
"Dm key"and " C#dim as 2nd dominant, which is a transition in the supertonic key."

#2225641 - 02/04/14 09:12 AM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: compianist1]  
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ando Offline
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ando  Offline
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Originally Posted by compianist1
so, after all I wrote, you STILL don't understand?

You know what, I deleted my reply entirely. PS. a good occasion for the person with a fragile ego problem, to delete his reply, so that my reply won't be visible. That will leave his reply, a rubbish analysis and completely off the track, but what do I care?

God be with both of you...


You are in serious need of help.


Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

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