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Originally Posted by wr
It was reported by his contemporaries that Chopin's sense of underlying pulse was regular and strict, and that he always keep it going, regardless of any rubato applied over it. And part of how he did it was by compensating for any tempo changes in one direction with an equal amount in the other, so that ultimately it was as if there had been none at all.

So that idea is maybe not so outlandish after all.
Unless one does this over a very short time interval the two hands will soon be completely out of sync. Suppose the RH melody slows down gradually over two measures and the LH hand accompaniment plays without any slowing down. The RH will be very quickly behind the LH with chaotic effect. IMO for virtually all pianists the LH follows what ever rubato the right hand does so that the notes that belong together are played together.

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Some context may help in the discussion. For example, lots of Chopin's music allows for exactly the kind of RH-only rubato you're talking about. Especially if you're talking about a nocturne or waltz. In particular when there is a RH run over a steady left hand accompaniment. They don't have to be completely in sync and it is not difficult to have the RH and LH meet at the same time on the following beat. I'm not talking about a whole phrase but maybe within a beat or three or something like that. Maybe this is different because in these cases the RH rhythm is almost completely written out?

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I've never understood the whole thing of having to "give back" as part of rubato. The music world did not choose "indebitamento" for the concept of varying time-values expressively.

John


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Originally Posted by drumour
I've never understood the whole thing of having to "give back" as part of rubato.


I don't understand what you don't understand - it's a pretty simple concept, whether one agrees with it or not.

I imagine that it derived, originally, from vocal soloists who would add rubato to their part while the accompanying ensemble kept strict time, and so, naturally enough, they'd have to give back any time they took simply to get back together with the ensemble. IIRC, Chopin at some time made some allusion to this when talking about rubato, although I don't remember his exact words or the circumstances.

Anyway, I can easily see how the idea might have been expanded to include more sorts of rubato than just that original idea of a vocal soloist and accompaniment.

It would be interesting to know more about the history time-keeping in classical music. I've read various bits and pieces of fascinating information about it, but don't know if there's a good book about it that covers it in depth.





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Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by drumour
I've never understood the whole thing of having to "give back" as part of rubato.


I don't understand what you don't understand - it's a pretty simple concept, whether one agrees with it or not.

I imagine that it derived, originally, from vocal soloists who would add rubato to their part while the accompanying ensemble kept strict time, and so, naturally enough, they'd have to give back any time they took simply to get back together with the ensemble.
I would assume the accompanying musician(pianist) or musicians(ensemble) would follow the singer. That's certainly the way it's done with just piano accompaniment or when a conductor follows a piano soloist in a concerto.

I think what drumour was saying that just because rubato translates as stolen time that doesn't imply any stolen time must be given back. To repeat the simplest example I gave earlier, if the right hand slows down or hesitates after a note the left hand must follow the right hand or the two hands will not be synchronized where as indicated in the score. In the Rubinstein performance of Op.9 No.2 posted earlier, there are numerous examples of little rubatos and each time Rubinstein's LH follows the RH.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 02/04/14 03:32 PM.
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