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#2224594 - 02/02/14 12:55 PM any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords?  
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 5
badtemperedclavier Offline
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badtemperedclavier  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 5
i feel a bit lost
plz anyone
plz try to clarify the function/role of the dim chords
i dont think i have seen any dim chord function in that way before, maybe i made some mistakes?
(using Steven Laitz & Edward Aldwell's texts)
i marked a b c for these pieces

for a: just start at bar9, in Em key,
we have bar 9&10 : i-iio6-i6-v6
the g#dim in bar11, whats that? 2nd inversion dim on #iii ?!
it sounds weird
anyway the F in next beat likely be Neapolitan 6/4...

for b: this piece start with an augmented Eb
but the key should be Eb
then what the hack is the chord at the end of bar3 ?
its enharmonic equ. to c# dim.

for c: it should be in Gm key
we got Gm-Dm-C#dim then back to Gm again
so..dim chord on #iv ??

any reply is appreciated

http://postimg.org/image/ss7ici2yt/
http://postimg.org/image/tnsyuvf47/
http://postimg.org/image/97vs5bdr5/

Last edited by badtemperedclavier; 02/02/14 01:10 PM.
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#2225301 - 02/03/14 06:18 PM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: badtemperedclavier]  
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 62
kdjupdal Offline
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kdjupdal  Offline
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Posts: 62
Norway
A dim chord often function as a dominant, more spesifically as a secondary dominant

For your "A" example: A secondary dominant to the subdominant, (actually the Neapolitan subdominant). That is, an E7 going to Aminor

#2225494 - 02/04/14 12:32 AM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: badtemperedclavier]  
Joined: Feb 2014
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badtemperedclavier Offline
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badtemperedclavier  Offline
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well...
from my understanding
a 2nd dominant moves to its tonic
otherwise, in most cases, that 2nd function is invalid

the e in bar11 right hand part
its..well.. very likely to be a passing note
connecting f & d#
rather than a real chord member

plz..feel free to correct my any mistakes

#2225715 - 02/04/14 12:02 PM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: badtemperedclavier]  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,290
Steve Chandler Offline
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Steve Chandler  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,290
Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted by badtemperedclavier
well...
from my understanding
a 2nd dominant moves to its tonic
otherwise, in most cases, that 2nd function is invalid

That's very rigid thinking that may apply in theory class, but this is a composition forum and we're always looking for new ways to use familiar harmonies.
Originally Posted by badtemperedclavier

the e in bar11 right hand part
its..well.. very likely to be a passing note
connecting f & d#
rather than a real chord member

plz..feel free to correct my any mistakes

I was taught that diminished chords usually used in 1st inversion and these examples exhibit B and C that. None of these is an extraordinary usage of a diminished chord nif you remember that the symmetrical aspect of the chord allows any one of the notes to act as leading tone.

I will say I think example B is misspelled. If a chord is defined as stacked thirds then the E should be Fb and the G should be Abb or the Db could be C# which would make sense if you analyze this as a secondary dominant resolving to deceptively to F major which functions as a dominant of Bb. That would mean the diminished chord functions the secondary dominant of the secondary dominant.

As for C, it's a pretty straightforward usage in G minor.

#2225842 - 02/04/14 05:05 PM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: badtemperedclavier]  
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 17
Jaap Offline
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Jaap  Offline
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Posts: 17
the Netherlands
Example A is a E56 chord. the E (the 3rd note in the right hand) is the actual root. You'll get EG#BD, a classic example of a sec dominant, moving into A, but here it moves into VI of A. If this were more cadencial, this would be a trugschlus.

I hear example B as a C with dim. 9th.
When you define a chord as stacked thirds you'll have to account for possible omissions.
The c9 makes sense since it functions as secondary dominant into Fm

As for example C, I perceive that as an II-34, with the root (A) omitted.
I think musically speaking that is what makes that example exciting. All voices go down, but the harmony (whan you hear the harmonic rhythm moving per measure) moves one up (from G to A). So the implied counterpoint has voices going in the opposite direction.

#2229667 - 02/11/14 03:15 PM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: Jaap]  
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 12
RMT Offline
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RMT  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 12
Rosenberg, TX
I agree with JAAP on the first example. The only functional diminished chord in m9-11 is the unaltered II on beat 2 of m.9. The first chord of m.11 functions as altered I (E7). Beyond that concern, here are my thoughts. Of course it would be over-stretching to consider that an a minor region is tonicized convincingly to justify much analysis in that IV region in m.11; this is simply because of the passage's brevity and furthermore by the fact that the relationship E7 to a minor is interrupted by F major. However, I might argue that the a minor chord (IV) (beyond holding its own subdom function here in e minor) is well justified as an interruption of the subdominant-dominant chords (N - V7) specifically because of the harmonic enrichment of I7. The altered I enriches the harmony by locally mimicking a dominant-tonic relationship between altered I (E7) and a minor despite their separation by the F Neapolitan (I tend to dislike the term secondary dominant). Further enriching relationship is the fact that F major is diatonic in a minor. Clever harmony!

So - I see, showing tonal degree without full chord quality indication, starting with m. 9:

I - II - I - V7 - I altered - II altered (Neapolitan) - IV - V7 - I.


Interested to hear analysis by others.

Thanks!



Ryan T.
2013 M&H BB
#2229720 - 02/11/14 04:46 PM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: badtemperedclavier]  
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 12
RMT Offline
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RMT  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 12
Rosenberg, TX
I agree with Jaap again on the second example. The harmony at the 2nd half of m.3 is functional as degree VI (c7 b9) with the root presented on the third beat and omitted from the chromatically driven (eb to e to f eventually at m.4) change in quality from VI unaltered to VI altered (at the end of the measure). This is a better analysis as the VI (C7) chord here moves by strong progression to II then on to V to I. The augmented chords at the beginning are simply colorings of the I chord. It is often helpful for analysis to view diminished chords as quasi-dominants with root omitted.


Ryan T.
2013 M&H BB
#2229775 - 02/11/14 05:57 PM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: Steve Chandler]  
Joined: Dec 2013
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RMT Offline
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RMT  Offline
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Posts: 12
Rosenberg, TX
The third example's chord in question seems pretty straightforward in the sense that the harmony at m.2 is an A7 chord w/ root omitted. This is a short example taken out of a larger context. Continuation would determine if the larger section is in g minor as indicated by the key sig or in d minor as indicated by the notes included in the example. There is no f# to point towards a g minor tonic, but we do have all diatonic notes of d minor including the leading tone and an e natural (not diatonic to g minor). On this small sample, a d minor chord would be the anticipated sounding tonic. The 2nd beat of m.1 could be just a written-out appoggiatura on a first inversion d minor chord followed by V7 of d minor. I think that if we played a d minor (or d major even) chord at the end of the example, we'd feel like we were "home".


Ryan T.
2013 M&H BB
#2230716 - 02/13/14 12:13 AM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: badtemperedclavier]  
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 7
Leon Harrell Offline
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Leon Harrell  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 7
Urbana
Hi badtemperedclavier,

A: mm.11 is an E Dominant, third inversion (E 4/2) or (E 2 in some textbooks)

The F is in the next beat and is an F major in second inversion (F 6/4) that could also be interpreted as an A minor with the F being a suspension resolving to the E.

Functionally in the key of e minor: The E Dominant is a V7 of iv which ultimately resolve to an A minor in first inversion (iv6) on the last subdivision of beat 2.

B: E fully diminished 7 functioning as viio7/ii (no Bb is present until the next beat in which case it acts as a 4-3 suspension over F) it resolves to F minor (ii in the key of Eb) that then resolve to V with another 4-3 suspension (Bb major with an Eb resolving to D)

C: Key of G minor, the chord is a viio in first inversion of V (C#o most likely ultimately leading to D major, the V chord, although the D chord is not shown in your excerpt).

Hope this helps, feel free to contact me with more questions,

-Leon


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#2231502 - 02/14/14 01:45 PM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: Leon Harrell]  
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 12
RMT Offline
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RMT  Offline
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Rosenberg, TX
Test - website problem.


Ryan T.
2013 M&H BB

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