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And the trills aren't even the hardest thing in the fugue, which in terms of technical difficulty is total insanity. And let's not even get started on the musical difficulty. But worth every one of those hundreds of hours! Time, extremely well spent.
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There must be better ways to spend time than studying the Hammerklavier sonata. However, just now I can't think of what they are.
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Polyphonist
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There must be better ways to spend time than studying the Hammerklavier sonata. However, just now I can't think of what they are. Suggestion: Spend more time with the score away from the piano. You can notice all kinds of helpful things that you'll miss when actually playing. -J
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Polyphonist
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The really difficult thing to do well is playing a trill while carrying a melody with other fingers of the same hand. I've just started practicing the Beethoven 106 - finally - and there is quite a bit of that, and it's a pain in the rear... I've encountered that in the Chopin Barcarolle and in the Waldstein. Practicing below tempo with measured trills, then gradually speeding up broke the barrier. For double trills - same thing.
Best regards,
Deborah
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The really difficult thing to do well is playing a trill while carrying a melody with other fingers of the same hand. I've just started practicing the Beethoven 106 - finally - and there is quite a bit of that, and it's a pain in the rear... Late Beethoven is the apotheosis of the trill. Treacherous difficulties in Op. 106, 109, and 111. I think the worst of it is in Op. 106 first movement, where you have to play octaves around the trills. Even when listening to Gilels, you hear a very slight hiccup before each octave where he has to stop trilling momentarily to play the octaves. Op. 109 has its brutal difficulty where you have to do trill+melody in both hands; Op. 106 also has this in the first movement. I'm toying with the idea of learning Op. 111 but I first have to see about those trills at the end... Speaking of which, how do people generally play these trill+melody passages? Do you play the melody note 'in-between' the trill notes, or do you play the melody note together with one of the trill notes and just bring it out? I've been practicing it the former way. In some pieces - the trill+octave in Op. 106, or in Op. 109 where the melody is a 10th away from the trill - I don't see any other choice. Even when reach is not an issue, I find that it sounds much better when the melody note is played 'in-between' the trill notes. In response to the OP, as others have stated, the hand must be completely free, especially the knuckles where the fingers meet the hand. Otherwise, you will lock up after a while (the length of this 'while' depends on how tense you are). If the hand and knuckles are perfectly free, you should be able to keep trilling without any unevenness or locking up.
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Speaking of which, how do people generally play these trill+melody passages? Do you play the melody note 'in-between' the trill notes, or do you play the melody note together with one of the trill notes and just bring it out? I've been practicing it the former way. In some pieces - the trill+octave in Op. 106, or in Op. 109 where the melody is a 10th away from the trill - I don't see any other choice. Even when reach is not an issue, I find that it sounds much better when the melody note is played 'in-between' the trill notes. I never play the trill note simultaneously with the melody note, even if it's feasible reach-wise. I just don't have the technique for it, and the approximation (leaving the trill note out when the melody sounds) sounds very very good. I'm influenced here by my teacher, who takes the view that all music is a sequence of aural illusions, and focusing extensively on playing every black dot exactly as written is often not the best approach for most of us. -Jason
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I'm toying with the idea of learning Op. 111... Unless you are absolutely committed and sure, AND have the immense requisite musical capacity, you will butcher it. Please don't play it unless you really feel you want and need to. One does not simply "toy with the idea" of playing late Beethoven sonatas.
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Polyphonist
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Is Op. 111 his greatest sonata?
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I'm toying with the idea of learning Op. 111... Unless you are absolutely committed and sure, AND have the immense requisite musical capacity, you will butcher it. Please don't play it unless you really feel you want and need to. One does not simply "toy with the idea" of playing late Beethoven sonatas. You're absolutely right. Perhaps the word 'toy' is a poor choice since it suggests a lack of seriousness. What I really mean is that I am indecisive: I badly *want* to play it and if I chose to do so, I would be committed, but I fear all of the things you have mentioned (having the musical and technical capacity, not butchering it, etc.). I think that my fear of butchering it will probably keep me from starting work on it (this has happened in the past as well). It's too sacred a work. I don't like to make statements of 'greatest' anything in music, but Op. 111 is my favorite piano sonata in the entire literature, not just by Beethoven. So in that sense, according to me, yes, it's the greatest of his (and everyone else's) sonatas!
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Speaking of which, how do people generally play these trill+melody passages? Do you play the melody note 'in-between' the trill notes, or do you play the melody note together with one of the trill notes and just bring it out? I've been practicing it the former way. In some pieces - the trill+octave in Op. 106, or in Op. 109 where the melody is a 10th away from the trill - I don't see any other choice. Even when reach is not an issue, I find that it sounds much better when the melody note is played 'in-between' the trill notes. I never play the trill note simultaneously with the melody note, even if it's feasible reach-wise. I just don't have the technique for it, and the approximation (leaving the trill note out when the melody sounds) sounds very very good. I'm influenced here by my teacher, who takes the view that all music is a sequence of aural illusions, and focusing extensively on playing every black dot exactly as written is often not the best approach for most of us. -Jason Thanks for your input, Jason. I agree, the illusion of playing the trill this way sounds very good. I just wonder if everyone plays it like this (the 'approximate' way, I mean)???
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Is Op. 111 his greatest sonata? Not only his greatest sonata, but the greatest sonata in the repertoire, with competition only from his other late sonatas, 106 especially.
Regards,
Polyphonist
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Is Op. 111 his greatest sonata? Not only his greatest sonata, but the greatest sonata in the repertoire, with competition only from his other late sonatas, 106 especially. It seems that the world of Beethoven lovers is divided into those who feel this way about 109 and those who feel this way about 111. Both groups deeply love both sonatas, but it tends to be one or the other that one feels is the ultimate statement. (I happen to be a "111 person", like you, myself.) -J
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Yes, I would say the 109 has the lowly position of only the third greatest sonata in the entire literature. But seriously, how could one find the finale of 109 more profound than that of 111? I can't understand it. Even the slow movement or finale of 106 I'll take over 109 any day. (Although that variation theme is to die for.)
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Polyphonist
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Speaking of which, how do people generally play these trill+melody passages? Do you play the melody note 'in-between' the trill notes, or do you play the melody note together with one of the trill notes and just bring it out? I've been practicing it the former way. In some pieces - the trill+octave in Op. 106, or in Op. 109 where the melody is a 10th away from the trill - I don't see any other choice. Even when reach is not an issue, I find that it sounds much better when the melody note is played 'in-between' the trill notes. I never play the trill note simultaneously with the melody note, even if it's feasible reach-wise. I just don't have the technique for it, and the approximation (leaving the trill note out when the melody sounds) sounds very very good. I'm influenced here by my teacher, who takes the view that all music is a sequence of aural illusions, and focusing extensively on playing every black dot exactly as written is often not the best approach for most of us. -Jason Thanks for your input, Jason. I agree, the illusion of playing the trill this way sounds very good. I just wonder if everyone plays it like this (the 'approximate' way, I mean)??? It is exactly that, an approximation, in case one can't manage the real way. Just as those of us who are not 6'4" must find ways to approximate most large reaches
Heather Reichgott, piano
Working on: Mel (Mélanie) Bonis - Sevillana, La cathédrale blessée William Grant Still - Three Visions
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Speaking of which, how do people generally play these trill+melody passages? Do you play the melody note 'in-between' the trill notes, or do you play the melody note together with one of the trill notes and just bring it out? I've been practicing it the former way. In some pieces - the trill+octave in Op. 106, or in Op. 109 where the melody is a 10th away from the trill - I don't see any other choice. Even when reach is not an issue, I find that it sounds much better when the melody note is played 'in-between' the trill notes. I never play the trill note simultaneously with the melody note, even if it's feasible reach-wise. I just don't have the technique for it, and the approximation (leaving the trill note out when the melody sounds) sounds very very good. I'm influenced here by my teacher, who takes the view that all music is a sequence of aural illusions, and focusing extensively on playing every black dot exactly as written is often not the best approach for most of us. Busoni has some interesting trill studies and in some of them he writes out this way of playing the Beethovenian trills.
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It seems that the world of Beethoven lovers is divided into those who feel this way about 109 and those who feel this way about 111. Both groups deeply love both sonatas, but it tends to be one or the other that one feels is the ultimate statement. (I happen to be a "111 person", like you, myself.) As Artur Rubinstein put it, "The human race does not deserve the finale of Opus 111."
Regards,
Polyphonist
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I tried asking Atrys about this, and in terms of the interossei muscles, he believes that one size fits all in terms of what fingers are used to play a trill.
Specifically, I would like your thoughts on the trills in the first four measures of the Brahms Paganini Variations, Var. IV. I have the Cortot Edition which says to play them in two triplets, instead of three duplets.
Earl Wild played them in duplets and Thibaudet plays them in triplets, much slower. Also, Cortot allows for a roll for those like myself who can't make the reach, and as you all know, I personally think that is the way Brahms played them himself.
So, I know all about the accents, and relaxation, so please let me know what your experience has been with this particular piece.
Hey, for all I know Atrys may be correct. If he is, I see no reason the same logic could not be used on the double thirds in measures #17 & 18 in Debussy's L'Isle joyeyse.
Also, there are Youtube videos out there of pianists playing this with fingerings other than four and five. When Olga Kern was here in San Antonio, trying to play this piece, she rolled the chords and used an alternate fingering. I mention this because of what the guy in the video says about using one and three, and also three and five.
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I haven't studied the Brahms-Paganini in-depth, I've only worked on a few variations as a sort of test of my technique. I've worked on Var IV and I played the chords 1-2-4, and trilled with 3-5. I don't really see any other way of doing it, other than rolling the chords but then it kind of defeats the purpose. I guess if you can't reach the chords, you don't have a choice. Although, my hands are not large at all (I can barely make a useable tenth from a white key to a white key) and I can still pull it off.
In general, I find 3-5 to be a very comfortable combination for trills. 1-2, 1-3, and 3-5 work pretty much the same for me. 2-3 and 2-4 are harder, although 2-4 is quite comfortable for certain trills - for example, if I trill B-flat and C in the right hand, 2-4 is about as good as 3-5. 4-5 trills are obviously the hardest and I try to use 3-5 instead wherever possible.
I actually found those leaping arpeggios to be the real problem with that variation. The trills more or less worked themselves out. Variation I has to be the worst of the lot: double-sixths in the left hand for two pages!!!
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I haven't studied the Brahms-Paganini in-depth, I've only worked on a few variations as a sort of test of my technique. I've worked on Var IV and I played the chords 1-2-4, and trilled with 3-5. I don't really see any other way of doing it, other than rolling the chords but then it kind of defeats the purpose. I guess if you can't reach the chords, you don't have a choice. Although, my hands are not large at all (I can barely make a useable tenth from a white key to a white key) and I can still pull it off.
In general, I find 3-5 to be a very comfortable combination for trills. 1-2, 1-3, and 3-5 work pretty much the same for me. 2-3 and 2-4 are harder, although 2-4 is quite comfortable for certain trills - for example, if I trill B-flat and C in the right hand, 2-4 is about as good as 3-5. 4-5 trills are obviously the hardest and I try to use 3-5 instead wherever possible.
I actually found those leaping arpeggios to be the real problem with that variation. The trills more or less worked themselves out. Variation I has to be the worst of the lot: double-sixths in the left hand for two pages!!! Thanks for the input. 1) Alfred Cortot, who had one or two female students in his teaching career, makes mention of the small hand. And, he therefore authorizes the roll. My hand is the same size as yours, but I have thin spindly fingers. 2) Accordingly, I figured out, and their is a Youtube of a concert pianist doing the same, that, after the roll, you finger 1,3,1,5,4. When you throw yourself into the roll, and then finger one and three, then five and four is a natural finish. 3) If you instead meant Variation II, when it came to the sixths in the left hand, I offer the following suggestion/observation: According to Earl Wild, Rachmaninoff (his personal friend) use to make a big deal about being able to go from one note to another at high speed with his thumb. Therefore, if you slide the thumb in the left hand, then you don't have the twisting and turning of four/one & five/two. You can do the same thing in Variation I, in the right hand. Once again, thanks. Personally, I recommend the Earl Wild recording, and also the Claudio Arrau recording of this piece.
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
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