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#2227652 - 02/07/14 08:22 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: voxpops]  
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Originally Posted by voxpops
I believe that Nord's polyphony count is for stereo voices, which would equate to a polyphony of 80-120 in a "standard" DP.

Nord specs it at 40 stereo, 60 mono.

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#2227675 - 02/07/14 09:03 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Marko in Boston]  
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Originally Posted by Marko in Boston
Slightly off topic, but helpful for sound comparison between CP4, RD700NX, and Artis.

https://soundcloud.com/sonic-sense-pro-audio/sets/kurzweil-roland-and-yamaha



I think I just found the matching video demo. Again, sorry a bit OT, but still helpful:




KAWAI ES7 | ROLAND RD-800 | YAMAHA CP4 | YAMAHA STAGEPAS 400i | PRESONUS R65 & T10 | SHURE SRH1540 | SENNHEISER HD650 | K&M OMEGA
#2227689 - 02/07/14 09:56 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: anotherscott]  
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by voxpops
I believe that Nord's polyphony count is for stereo voices, which would equate to a polyphony of 80-120 in a "standard" DP.

Nord specs it at 40 stereo, 60 mono.

Thanks for clarifying.

Interesting that the mono count is only half as much again as the stereo.


"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

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#2227691 - 02/07/14 10:02 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: voxpops]  
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Originally Posted by voxpops
Interesting that the mono count is only half as much again as the stereo.

Showing once again that Nord has their own ways of doing things!

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#2227721 - 02/07/14 11:55 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]  
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No, the mono need is 2/3 of the stereo need, if the ratio is 40/60, stereo/mono. That actually means, that to get from mono to stereo, it's 50% increase of used polyphony.

I always thought that stereo took up twice as much of the polyphony, as compared to mono. That is, if you play one note in mono, the piano has one less notes of polyphony at the disposal. If you play one note in stereo, it's two less notes of polyphony you have left.

P(after) = P(before) - notesPlayed(mono)
P(after) = P(before) - 2*notesPlayed(stereo)

Am I misunderstanding something, or Nord, and the latter on purpose maybe?

Edit2: About that video, soundwise, of the three, I liked the Yamaha CP4 most.

Last edited by TheodorN; 02/08/14 12:06 AM.

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#2228037 - 02/08/14 06:46 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: TheodorN]  
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Originally Posted by voxpops
Interesting that the mono count is only half as much again as the stereo.
Originally Posted by TheodorN
No, the mono need is 2/3 of the stereo need, if the ratio is 40/60, stereo/mono. That actually means, that to get from mono to stereo, it's 50% increase of used polyphony.

Same thing. "50% increase" means the same as "half as much again."

Originally Posted by TheodorN
I always thought that stereo took up twice as much of the polyphony, as compared to mono.

In most cases, yes. Nord is obviously doing something differently. That's why vox called it "interesting" in the first place.

To get back to the actual issue of polyphony limitations, Nord's approach of separate polyphony for the separate "engines" also has an advantage over some others. 40 stereo piano plus 18 synth (say, strings) means you can layer the two, and still have 40 piano notes available. On a typical board with 64 polyphony, which sounds like more, if you layered stereo piano and stereo strings, your piano polyphony would be reduced to 16!

Even with today's more common 128 polyphony boards, if you layered stereo piano and stereo strings on most boards, your piano polyphony would be down to 32, compared to the 40 you would still have on the Nord that, at first glance, appears to have less polyphony. Though of course, you'd be able to have 32 notes of strings sustaining, instead of only the last 18. Now, how beneficial it really is to have 32 notes of sustaining strings under your piano rather than 18 (and whether that's worth cutting your piano polyphony from 40 to 32) is a different question. ;-)

Anyway, the fact that Nord dedicates 40 notes of polyphony to the stereo piano may be why there are no real world complaints about it, as so many other boards that look more impressive on paper actually drop you to less than 40 once you go stereo and/or add more sounds with splits and layers.

#2228153 - 02/08/14 10:04 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]  
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Well, voxpops said that mono uses up half as much as stereo. He was not talking about increase, but decrease, because mono uses less than stereo. Sorry, but this confused me, my understanding of "half as much" is, that if I eat half as much of nuts as John Doe, it means, if John Doe eats 60 nuts, I eat 30.

But at least we were talking about the same thing, I see that now, and thank you for your further explanations of polyphony, anotherscott.


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#2228157 - 02/08/14 10:21 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: TheodorN]  
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Originally Posted by TheodorN
Well, voxpops said that mono uses up half as much as stereo. He was not talking about increase, but decrease, because mono uses less than stereo. Sorry, but this confused me, my understanding of "half as much" is, that if I eat half as much of nuts as John Doe, it means, if John Doe eats 60 nuts, I eat 30.

I see you're from Sweden, so maybe this is a language issue, but voxpops didn't say "half as much" - he said "half as much again" which is entirely different. "Half as much" means 50%. "Half as much again" means 50% more. (Or, if you prefer, 150%.) It's not the most common way to say it, but it is correct. Hopefully that clears it all up. Glad I helped on the polyphony!

#2228162 - 02/08/14 10:35 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]  
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Thank you, anotherscott, didn't realize that the "again" changed the meaning. cool Actually I'm from Iceland, but living in Sweden.


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Casio PX-5S. Garritan CFX. Production Grand 2 Gold, Estate Grand, Studio Grand LE. NI Giant. Galaxy II Blüthner Baby Grand. AcousticSamples C7. AK Studio Grand. Sampletekk Black. Kontakt 5. Reaper.
#2228527 - 02/09/14 03:50 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]  
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CP4 has music rest option. What do you do with RD800? No rest option, same as 700NX? Just curious what Roland owners do. I know it's not necessarily a significant feature for some. But it's a fairly important option on my checklist while shopping for my second DP.

Last edited by Marko in Boston; 02/09/14 03:54 PM.

KAWAI ES7 | ROLAND RD-800 | YAMAHA CP4 | YAMAHA STAGEPAS 400i | PRESONUS R65 & T10 | SHURE SRH1540 | SENNHEISER HD650 | K&M OMEGA
#2228548 - 02/09/14 04:34 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]  
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Decent music stands placed behind the keyboard work well and won't shake the music when you dig into the keyboard. I have a CP4 but prefer to use music stand.


Yamaha CP4, Kawai CA93, EV ZXA1
#2228599 - 02/09/14 05:37 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Coker]  
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I can understand that. I just hate to bring additional gear to a gig. All Kawai and Yamaha have music rest option, why not Roland?? I know, Im getting OT.


KAWAI ES7 | ROLAND RD-800 | YAMAHA CP4 | YAMAHA STAGEPAS 400i | PRESONUS R65 & T10 | SHURE SRH1540 | SENNHEISER HD650 | K&M OMEGA
#2238083 - 02/26/14 05:56 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]  
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Very good side-by-side comparison. Both sound very nice. Tough choice for some.





KAWAI ES7 | ROLAND RD-800 | YAMAHA CP4 | YAMAHA STAGEPAS 400i | PRESONUS R65 & T10 | SHURE SRH1540 | SENNHEISER HD650 | K&M OMEGA
#2238091 - 02/26/14 06:11 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Marko in Boston]  
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Strewth, the guy likes to jabber doesn`t he? But he eventually got the job done.

Both sounded well. But did they sound even the least like an acoustic? No. Do we want `em to? Speaking for myself, maybe now and again. The Yammie was sweeter. Can you de tune it? grin For Joplin . . .

Last edited by peterws; 02/26/14 06:11 PM.

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#2238097 - 02/26/14 06:35 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]  
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I must admit I liked the Yamaha a bit better on the acoustic pianos. However, the Studio on the Roland was nice too. What is he trying to show at 9:02? Damper/string resonance comparison?


KAWAI ES7 | ROLAND RD-800 | YAMAHA CP4 | YAMAHA STAGEPAS 400i | PRESONUS R65 & T10 | SHURE SRH1540 | SENNHEISER HD650 | K&M OMEGA
#2238103 - 02/26/14 06:49 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: peterws]  
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Originally Posted by peterws
Strewth, the guy likes to jabber doesn`t he? But he eventually got the job done.

Both sounded well. But did they sound even the least like an acoustic? No. Do we want `em to? Speaking for myself, maybe now and again. The Yammie was sweeter. Can you de tune it? grin For Joplin . . .


It has a "ragtime" setting on the S6 sample, but you could probably go beyond even that if you wanted.

#2239401 - 03/01/14 08:00 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]  
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I tried the CP4 today and was very impressed. Loved all three piano sounds. Action was good.Good Ep sounds. Weight is much less (17.5kg) than the last generation of Stage Pianos. Interface was simple, and has has enough features for everything I really need. This will probably be be the one. Not to mention the price is much less than even the RD700NX (RD800 not yet in stores in Australia).


Kawai MP7
#2239407 - 03/01/14 08:24 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]  
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That was an excellent demonstration video. Both keyboards sound great.

My personal preference for acoustic pianos is the Yamaha.

I liked the other non piano sounds on the Roland maybe a little tiny bit better.

I am probably going to go for the CP4 because I mainly use AP sounds, but I am waiting for the MP7 to come out just to be certain.

I hope he will do a video comparing the CP4 and MP7.


Yamaha CP4(gigs), Kawai MP7(home), Yamaha CP33(gigs), Yamaha P80(retired), four QSC K10's, Allen and Heath Zed 10fx mixer, Sennheiser HD598, Bachendorff acoustic 45"
#2242137 - 03/06/14 10:13 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]  
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I went to GC midafternoon yesterday for something non-keyboard related. Of course I had to visit the keyboard area regardless. They had the CP4 and RD800 side by on a lower lever rack with bench and pedal on each. VERY rare for GC!! So I ran out to my car and grabbed my headphones (HD380). Timing was perfect because the place was dead midafternoon and I had quick 20 minutes to spare.

So here are my brief findings on both. However, probably nothing that hasnt already been said on the forums:

Action: Both very good and enjoyable to play. RD800 seems to be the same as RD700NX just a bit les thumping and faintly softer touch. IMO it feels like same mechanics of RD700NX with additional felt and changed the name from PHA3 to PHA4. Thats fine. Its still great action. CP4 feels slightly lighter than RD800. Both very similar except that you can somewhat sense the let-off in the RD800. I want to say I prefer the CP4s action a bit more due to the wooden keys. Wood keys seem to make it more realistic but Im not convinced thats only in my mind. Again, both very nice feel, but neither match the authenticity of the RM3 or GF if thats what you are expecting.

Sound: I mostly played the default APs this go-round and quickly tried a few voices. Both APs very good, but different for sure. RD800, despite what some say, I found the default Concert Grand to be quite good with some minor adjustment on the EQ and tone color. The sound seems to be cleaner and more dynamic than the CP4 but not as rich and a little plinky. I dont hear the metallic-like sound as much as I did in the RD700NX somewhere between C4-C6. The CP4 CFX was full and rich. At default its just slightly over processed with reverb with some compression perhaps and not as clean as RD800 but still a little more authentic. The best way I can describe clean is that the RD800 was very clear and dynamic with wide stereo balance. The CP4 sounds very rich and authentic but it not as clean meaning that it almost sounds like a thin sheet of cloth is covering the sound or I need a swab to clean my ears. I just could not EQ that hint of muffled-like tone out of it. Yet, I still preferred the rich tones over the RD800. Truly a matter of taste. Keep in mind that everything I say means nothing when it comes to live performance. Im demoing with flat studio headphones and these are stage pianos designed to be played live with proper amplification.

Navigation/layout/esthetics: As good as Yamaha improved its navigation, I think RD800 would be better for live situation. RD800 quick and easy to use. No manual needed. I found everything I was looking almost instantly. CP4 took me a bit to figure out, yet much better that the previous CP5. Does not really matter which one you buy. You still will want to study and program it before you go live. Both are built with heavy duty plastics/polymer. IMO CP5 and RD700NX were much better looking and significantly more solid. I know, but heavy. Does it matter? Not really as long as they are roadworthy which they certainly are.

Conclusion: Not easy to give a definitive conclusion after 20 minutes, but I can say that both are suited very well for any professional for live performances. The RD800 offers more in features, editing, and usable voices in addition to great APs and good EPs. CP4 nicely covers all the bases for great APs and great EPs with a few usable voices. Many of the additional CP4 voices are drum sets and way too many IMO. One thing for sure is that these upgraded models will not blow you away from the previous version. The updates are almost disappointing if you had high expectation for a big change from the CP5 or RD700NX.
My final thoughts. I would be pleased with either one. The both have plenty to offer for stage and studio. However, If I was a CP5 or RD700NX owner, I would not race out to sell or trade for either one of these unless I really needed go with a lighter DP. The upgrades seem miniscule in the big picture of what we really want or would like to see in an upgrade. Will these upgrades make your life a little easier? Maybe. Will they sound and play significantly better than predecessors? Not by much. Is this another instance of planned obsolesces? Perhaps


KAWAI ES7 | ROLAND RD-800 | YAMAHA CP4 | YAMAHA STAGEPAS 400i | PRESONUS R65 & T10 | SHURE SRH1540 | SENNHEISER HD650 | K&M OMEGA
#2242403 - 03/06/14 09:12 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Marko in Boston]  
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Very thoughtful evaluation. Thanks, Marko.

#2242507 - 03/07/14 04:32 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]  
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Perhaps one of the great advantages the CP4/40 have over a lot of the opposition is that apart from the Nords, these are the first DPs I've come across which sound not only acceptable but actually very good in mono. For gigging pros, this is a really important point which Yamaha have really addressed. I spent about an hour this morning really honing a stock mono sound which is warm and expressive. When I switched back to some of the stereo offerings, I found myself _preferring_ my mono creation.

I haven't yet had chance to check out the RD800 but my memories of using my old RD700GX mono are not happy ones. It never failed to disappoint me how a DP which sounded so wonderful in the studio could sound so crappy live.

Btw, I agree with Marko that the standard presets don't show the CP4/40 at its best but the good news is that you can go really quite deep with the editing to create a sound you like with relative ease. The first port of call for customisers should be the Velocity Depth and Offset parameters, closely followed by the Filter Cut-off and Res controls.


Live: Casio PX-5S | Hammond SK1
Studio: Yamaha CP4 | Hammond SK2 | Kurzweil PC361 | Moog Sub 37
#2242543 - 03/07/14 08:04 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Aidan]  
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Would you care to share your settings for the mono sound?


Yamaha CP4, Kawai CA93, EV ZXA1
#2242561 - 03/07/14 09:17 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Coker]  
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OK I'll try. I started out with the standard CF mono factory preset. The rest of the settings run like this:

COMMON
Reverb effect: NHall
Rev time 1.9ms
Init time 22.1ms

PART

Play mode:
Gain 118 Rev send 30
Vel Depth 68 Vel Offset 58

Filter:
Cut-off +5 Res +6

Effect A
Hi res: 0.6 Dry/Wet D46>W, all other settings as per preset

I think I left everything else as it was but can't be 100% sure, as I did some digging. I may have upped the low frequencies in the EQ501 effect on A.


Live: Casio PX-5S | Hammond SK1
Studio: Yamaha CP4 | Hammond SK2 | Kurzweil PC361 | Moog Sub 37
#2242562 - 03/07/14 09:18 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]  
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I should add the caveat that you may need to adjust these further depending on your amplification. The above sounds good to me through a single QSC K10, my standard amp.


Live: Casio PX-5S | Hammond SK1
Studio: Yamaha CP4 | Hammond SK2 | Kurzweil PC361 | Moog Sub 37
#2242735 - 03/07/14 04:35 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Aidan]  
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Thanks Very Much. I'll try it


Yamaha CP4, Kawai CA93, EV ZXA1
#2244933 - 03/11/14 07:03 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]  
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I demoed the CP4 and RD800 again this afternoon for over an hour. They are both so nice sounding in their own way. At this point, Im changing my mind and leaning more to the the RD800. I might give the action to CP4 but just by a slight hair. Now, I think the RD800 might be the clear winner in overall sound and functionality - the whole package. The RD800 has something new that I was never able to hear with the RD700nx. Surprising to me because I'm not a Roland fan. I dug into the piano and tone designer as well as the live set edits. Wow, very impressed with the sound I was getting. AND I think I finally understand and hear what the "string resonance" is all about. Yes, the sound is "alive" with string resonance. Roland did something different this time around with the RD800 that truly addressed everything I disliked about their piano sound. Im certain I would have purchased the the RD800 today if I didn't know the MP7 is on it's way. I can't imagine the MP7 disappointing me and Im sure that will be my choice in the end. As nice as the RD800 is I cant see myself spending $2,500 on it knowing that the MP11 is within that reach and the MP7 much less. HOWEVER, Im glad and fortunate to have options now.


KAWAI ES7 | ROLAND RD-800 | YAMAHA CP4 | YAMAHA STAGEPAS 400i | PRESONUS R65 & T10 | SHURE SRH1540 | SENNHEISER HD650 | K&M OMEGA
#2244971 - 03/11/14 07:52 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Marko in Boston]  
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Originally Posted by Marko in Boston
I think I finally understand and hear what the "string resonance" is all about. Yes, the sound is "alive" with string resonance.


thumb Told ya! It is a real thing - glad you've come across to our side. grin

#2244990 - 03/11/14 08:40 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: ando]  
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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by Marko in Boston
I think I finally understand and hear what the "string resonance" is all about. Yes, the sound is "alive" with string resonance.


thumb Told ya! It is a real thing - glad you've come across to our side. grin


You got me, ando! I think you might be right without a doubt. I can somewhat detect the string resonance on my ES7 , but clearly on the RD800 with the option of 0-127. On some pieces I played with the string resonances turned up gave a very full, organic tone that indeed seems to come "alive" . This does not necessarily means it sounds "better" than the CP4 but certainly more "believable" . Maybe this is why I prefer the sound of the CG on my ES7 over the CP4 as I mentioned in a previous post.

So, I guess it's fair to say that string resonance is a credible and beneficial feature on a digital piano if properly implemented into the sound engine by the manufacturer. I'm also assuming string resonance can vary per manufacturer and not all sound and perform the same.


KAWAI ES7 | ROLAND RD-800 | YAMAHA CP4 | YAMAHA STAGEPAS 400i | PRESONUS R65 & T10 | SHURE SRH1540 | SENNHEISER HD650 | K&M OMEGA
#2245002 - 03/11/14 08:59 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Marko in Boston]  
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Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by Marko in Boston

So, I guess it's fair to say that string resonance is a credible and beneficial feature on a digital piano if properly implemented into the sound engine by the manufacturer. I'm also assuming string resonance can vary per manufacturer and not all sound and perform the same.


Very much so. But I guess it's in the eye of the beholder which brands make a given piano come alive. For me, any string resonance is better than none - but some do it better than others. Roland does it well, Casio was reasonable. Kawai is good on their higher models. I can't recall if I ever experienced it on a Yamaha product - but if I did it wasn't great. The Yamahas have a nice overall tone in terms of samples, but they don't quite feel "alive" to me. That's why I won't even bother trying to track down a CP4 to try out (unless it's right in front of me, but I won't drive across town to find one). I was very disappointed by Yamaha's continued neglect of string resonance. I have a Yamaha acoustic anyway - plenty of resonance there! I'm very excited to try the Kawai MP7 because it might just fit the bill for a quiet practice/small gigs piano.

#2258217 - 04/07/14 01:50 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]  
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,372
Marko in Boston Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Marko in Boston  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,372
Boston, Massachusetts
Not a "vs" video, but a nice little jam with both CP4 and RD800.





KAWAI ES7 | ROLAND RD-800 | YAMAHA CP4 | YAMAHA STAGEPAS 400i | PRESONUS R65 & T10 | SHURE SRH1540 | SENNHEISER HD650 | K&M OMEGA
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