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Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Cmin] #2219285
01/23/14 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Cmin
But would that be physical modelling? I don't know. It sound more like the first steps to SN.

According to a post from "VintageAudio" on KVR forum:
"Roland MKS series are based on Structured Adaptive Synthesis...
So that means MKS-20 is purely a modeled piano. (Structured Adaptive Synthesis is design meant to emulate a real piano with expressiveness per velocity). No actual sound samples like in romplers from JV/XV series (and all romplers in general)... "


Whether this is accurate or not, I don't know, but it suggests that, even though samples were employed to create the data, they were not included in the playback sound engine. But at this stage it's difficult to be definitive. Hovever, Synthtopia corroborates this view:
"Back in 1986, there weren’t many good ways to take a good keyboard sounds with you while touring. Sampled pianos were in their infancy, with extremely low sample rates and small ROM sizes. One answer to this problem was SAS synthesis. This unique form of synthesis uses no samples whatsoever, and produces a very realistic sound. Still, its not a ‘real piano’, so these days the sound is more useful for its retro character."

My understanding is that when Roland moved on to Advanced SAS in the '90s, they reincorporated samples as part of the sound generation, but also included more features, such as resonance.

Last edited by voxpops; 01/23/14 07:28 AM.

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Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Mta88] #2219371
01/23/14 10:26 AM
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The basis of the Vpiano sound is SAS ... then SN processing is added. The basis of other Roland DP's is samples then SN processing is added.


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Dr Popper] #2219396
01/23/14 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
The basis of the Vpiano sound is SAS ... then SN processing is added. The basis of other Roland DP's is samples then SN processing is added.

Which seems to be the same as the relationship between the original SAS (no samples) and A/SAS (samples plus modeling). I don't know whether I am being technically accurate describing the SN processing as modeling, but that seems to be what's going on: re-synthesizing the input waves according to the expected characteristics of the piano and its various resonances to produce unlooped decay, adjustable resonance, and seamless velocity transitions.

Last edited by voxpops; 01/23/14 12:51 PM.

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Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: voxpops] #2219662
01/23/14 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by voxpops
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
The basis of the Vpiano sound is SAS ... then SN processing is added. The basis of other Roland DP's is samples then SN processing is added.

Which seems to be the same as the relationship between the original SAS (no samples) and A/SAS (samples plus modeling). I don't know whether I am being technically accurate describing the SN processing as modeling, but that seems to be what's going on: re-synthesizing the input waves according to the expected characteristics of the piano and its various resonances to produce unlooped decay, adjustable resonance, and seamless velocity transitions.


Technically accurate description of SN processing.


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
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Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Dr Popper] #2219686
01/23/14 08:27 PM
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So is all we have is what we had in the 80s plus a new and improved buzz word ?

Super Natural ? - c'mon that must have come STRAIGHT from marketing dept.

U220 and D10 plus - plus WHAT ?

Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: R_B] #2219703
01/23/14 09:01 PM
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Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: R_B] #2219725
01/23/14 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by R_B
So is all we have is what we had in the 80s plus a new and improved buzz word ?


How long has the 747 been taking to the skies? If it ain't broke...

But seriously, the processing power has increased considerably since then, and so the sound is much more sophisticated. That said, the EP in my HP3000s was way more "alive" than that in the FP-50 I have now, even if it was nowhere near a real Rhodes sound.

Quote
U220 and D10 plus - plus WHAT ?

I had the Rhodes 660 for a while (same as the U220 innards, if I recall correctly). That was actually a very usable instrument that helped me make some recordings for a TV documentary. These days, though, I think I'd prefer a new FA-08.


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Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: voxpops] #2219738
01/23/14 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by voxpops
I don't know whether I am being technically accurate describing the SN processing as modeling, but that seems to be what's going on: re-synthesizing the input waves according to the expected characteristics of the piano and its various resonances to produce unlooped decay, adjustable resonance, and seamless velocity transitions.

That isn't what I'd refer to as physical modeling. Physical modeling is describing the physical behavior of a pianos mechanical parts using dynamic equations that ultimately transform mechanical movement into acoustical energy, i.e. a mechanical-acoustical model. What's being described here is synthesis by deducing the characteristics of a piano's sound waveforms and modifying elementary (or could be sampled) waveforms to simulate a piano sound - i.e. adding harmonics, filtering, etc.


Macy

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Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Macy] #2219758
01/23/14 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Macy
Originally Posted by voxpops
I don't know whether I am being technically accurate describing the SN processing as modeling, but that seems to be what's going on: re-synthesizing the input waves according to the expected characteristics of the piano and its various resonances to produce unlooped decay, adjustable resonance, and seamless velocity transitions.

That isn't what I'd refer to as physical modeling. Physical modeling is describing the physical behavior of a pianos mechanical parts using dynamic equations that ultimately transform mechanical movement into acoustical energy, i.e. a mechanical-acoustical model. What's being described here is synthesis by deducing the characteristics of a piano's sound waveforms and modifying elementary (or could be sampled) waveforms to simulate a piano sound - i.e. adding harmonics, filtering, etc.

Isn't the decay in SN exactly what you describe: transforming the mechanical movement of the string (post-hammer strike in the case of SN) into into an acoustical representation, which is dynamically changing over time (not simply being filtered or faded)?

I'm not certain that it is modeling, as I really don't have the technical knowledge to support such a thesis, but would genuinely like to know what's going on.


"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

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Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: bennevis] #2219769
01/23/14 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by HisKidd

Bennevis…
It's interesting that the new RD-800 contains a sample of the V-Piano. Guess that sample would be SN sound on the 800?

I haven't seen the RD-800 yet, much less played one.

But I don't know what a 'sample' of the V means, as there are no samples in the V: all the sound is generated from scratch, which is what modelling is all about. Perhaps it just means that the basic sound somewhat resembles one of the preset sounds of the V.


Roland recorded one of the V-Piano Grand's preset sounds live and has made a sample set of it. Then they use the SN technology effect to lengthen the short sample loop making the decay more natural sounding as they do with all the SN piano samples. Recording the sound live would make it sound better than simply hearing and copying it on a computer as other factors when listening live play a role in the sound.

Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Macy] #2219804
01/24/14 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Macy
Originally Posted by voxpops
I don't know whether I am being technically accurate describing the SN processing as modeling, but that seems to be what's going on: re-synthesizing the input waves according to the expected characteristics of the piano and its various resonances to produce unlooped decay, adjustable resonance, and seamless velocity transitions.

That isn't what I'd refer to as physical modeling. Physical modeling is describing the physical behavior of a pianos mechanical parts using dynamic equations that ultimately transform mechanical movement into acoustical energy, i.e. a mechanical-acoustical model. What's being described here is synthesis by deducing the characteristics of a piano's sound waveforms and modifying elementary (or could be sampled) waveforms to simulate a piano sound - i.e. adding harmonics, filtering, etc.


Well then there is no such thing a a physically modeled piano ...


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Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Dr Popper] #2219824
01/24/14 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by Macy
Originally Posted by voxpops
I don't know whether I am being technically accurate describing the SN processing as modeling, but that seems to be what's going on: re-synthesizing the input waves according to the expected characteristics of the piano and its various resonances to produce unlooped decay, adjustable resonance, and seamless velocity transitions.

That isn't what I'd refer to as physical modeling. Physical modeling is describing the physical behavior of a pianos mechanical parts using dynamic equations that ultimately transform mechanical movement into acoustical energy, i.e. a mechanical-acoustical model. What's being described here is synthesis by deducing the characteristics of a piano's sound waveforms and modifying elementary (or could be sampled) waveforms to simulate a piano sound - i.e. adding harmonics, filtering, etc.


Well then there is no such thing a a physically modeled piano ...

It is my understanding that Pianoteq is indeed a physically modeled piano. Perhaps I have been misinformed?

Just as an example (unrelated to Pianoteq as far as I know) here is a paper on physical modeling of a piano soundboard.

http://www.physics.purdue.edu/piano/articles/soundboard.ps

And here is a link to some results:

http://www.physics.purdue.edu/piano/piano.html

"Here are some results from our piano modeling project. These are calculated piano tones, computed using only Newton's laws (i.e., F=ma). In addition, ALL of the parameters of the calculation have been determined from separates studies of hammers, strings, soundboards, etc. None of the parameters have been adjusted just to make the tones sound good. They were all taken from independent work, so there is no fudging!"

Here is another paper on modeling the piano action including the interaction of the hammers on the strings (a vital component of piano modeling) and the acoustical circuits in Chapter 4.

http://www.pianophysics.com/JA/slides/content.html

Last edited by Macy; 01/24/14 02:16 AM.

Macy

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Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: voxpops] #2219839
01/24/14 03:09 AM
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Originally Posted by voxpops
Originally Posted by Macy
Originally Posted by voxpops
I don't know whether I am being technically accurate describing the SN processing as modeling, but that seems to be what's going on: re-synthesizing the input waves according to the expected characteristics of the piano and its various resonances to produce unlooped decay, adjustable resonance, and seamless velocity transitions.

That isn't what I'd refer to as physical modeling. Physical modeling is describing the physical behavior of a pianos mechanical parts using dynamic equations that ultimately transform mechanical movement into acoustical energy, i.e. a mechanical-acoustical model. What's being described here is synthesis by deducing the characteristics of a piano's sound waveforms and modifying elementary (or could be sampled) waveforms to simulate a piano sound - i.e. adding harmonics, filtering, etc.

Isn't the decay in SN exactly what you describe: transforming the mechanical movement of the string (post-hammer strike in the case of SN) into into an acoustical representation, which is dynamically changing over time (not simply being filtered or faded)?

I'm not certain that it is modeling, as I really don't have the technical knowledge to support such a thesis, but would genuinely like to know what's going on.


We can design all kinds of complex adaptive filters where many filter characteristics change over time (from the initial key strike for instance) and/or depend on initial velocity of a key strike, etc. The design of such filters can be based on observing typical waveform characteristics of acoustic pianos. In that sense we are creating observational models of how acoustic piano waveforms behave and apply those models to waveforms created by pure synthesis or to actual piano samples to improve the quality of the acoustic piano simulation. For instance, the piano designer can observe that hammer hardness changes timbre in multiple ways and design complex adaptive filters that mimic those effects. He can even create a hammer hardness parameter for the user to change that varies those filter parameters in a convincing way. Nevertheless, this is still observing the typical effects of varying hammer hardness in order to create filters that simulate those effects.

But that isn't physical modeling. We haven't generated sound waveforms from mathematical equations describing the actual physical characteristics and the actual mechanical-acoustical behavior (motion dynamics and energy transfer) of a piano's physical parts (hammers, strings, soundboard, etc). If we could create such a successful physical model (consisting of many complex differential equations representing the behavior of those parts) we could then plug in actual measured physical properties of actual parts (lengths, diameter, stiffness of strings, dimensions and density of the soundboard, etc.) and expect the sound to change as it would if we had built a variety of acoustic pianos using parts with those physical characteristics. With an idealistic perfect physical model we could take apart a Steinway and measure the actual characteristics of each of its modeled parts and plug those into our physical model equations and the result would sound like that Steinway, not like a Yamaha piano, or even a different model Steinway. Obviously we are far, far away from creating a physical model that accurate, or some would say even accurate enough to sound like a real piano.


Macy

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Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Macy] #2219867
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Originally Posted by Macy

It is my understanding that Pianoteq is indeed a physically modeled piano. Perhaps I have been misinformed?




I'd call it one ... but according to your criteria it isn't


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Dr Popper] #2219925
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by Macy

It is my understanding that Pianoteq is indeed a physically modeled piano. Perhaps I have been misinformed?




I'd call it one ... but according to your criteria it isn't


What would you call Pianoteq, then, if it does not fit the criteria for a truly modelled instrument? Maybe it's merely an advanced synthesizer.

......not to mention the Roland V-Piano. Presumably, according to these rigorous and idealistic criteria, the V-Piano doesn't even get off the starting blocks.

Last edited by toddy; 01/24/14 08:52 AM.

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Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: toddy] #2219969
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Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by Macy

It is my understanding that Pianoteq is indeed a physically modeled piano. Perhaps I have been misinformed?




I'd call it one ... but according to your criteria it isn't


What would you call Pianoteq, then, if it does not fit the criteria for a truly modelled instrument? Maybe it's merely an advanced synthesizer.

......not to mention the Roland V-Piano. Presumably, according to these rigorous and idealistic criteria, the V-Piano doesn't even get off the starting blocks.


yep .. Advanced Synthesis about covers it (or focused synthesis might be a better term because there are certainly more advanced synths about)

According the the criteria presented nothing is modelled like that. I can't see how you could ever model an acoustic instrument like that ...except one particular example of it. You can model the behaviour of the player interactions and variations and a myriad of other variables but the basic tone must by supplied as a generated waveform which of course can be itself modelled on the waveforms emitted by a real piano but it's not built from scratch.


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Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Dr Popper] #2220185
01/24/14 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I can't see how you could ever model an acoustic instrument like that ...except one particular example of it. You can model the behaviour of the player interactions and variations and a myriad of other variables but the basic tone must by supplied as a generated waveform which of course can be itself modelled on the waveforms emitted by a real piano but it's not built from scratch.


That simply isn't true as shown in the links I provided.

"Here are some results from our piano modeling project. These are calculated piano tones, computed using only Newton's laws (i.e., F=ma). In addition, ALL of the parameters of the calculation have been determined from separates studies of hammers, strings, soundboards, etc."

http://www.physics.purdue.edu/piano/piano.html

"The tones produced by these power-law hammers are not very good. So, we have studied the hammers more carefully, and explored their properties in greater detail. It has long been known that real hammers display some hysteresis - that is, the force-compressions (F-z) relation is different on the compression branch when compared to the decompression branch. We have now studied this in detail, and have used a mathematical model introduced by Stulov to describe this hysteretic function. We also devised a new way to measure the hammer-string force when the hammer stikes a real string. When we use these results and the Stulov function for F(z) the calcualed tones are much improved. Here are some examples." [click on the link above for the example links]



Macy

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Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Mta88] #2220188
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The record quality is so horrible, that this S&S M sound like my 80 years bad shape upright...
I would like to hear it recorded with real good quality, I do not have bloody idea why the heck even the computer sound is so ugly

Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Dr Popper] #2220206
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
Originally Posted by Macy

It is my understanding that Pianoteq is indeed a physically modeled piano. Perhaps I have been misinformed?




I'd call it one ... but according to your criteria it isn't

I haven't tried to look into it in any depth, but the Pianoteq web site references this paper on physical modelling which suggests that in fact they do physical modelling.

http://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/tel-00662740

"Modeling and numerical simulation of a piano.
The purpose of this study is the time domain modeling and numerical simulation of a piano. We aim at explaining the vibratory and acoustical behavior of the piano, by taking into account the main elements that contribute to sound production. The soundboard is modeled as a bidimensional thick, orthotropic, heterogeneous, frequency dependant damped plate, using Reissner Mindlin equations. The vibroacoustics equations allow the soundboard to radiate into the surrounding air, in which we wish to compute the complete acoustical field around the perfectly rigid rim. The soundboard is also coupled to the strings at the bridge, where they form a slight angle from horizontal. Each string is modeled by a one dimensional damped system of equations, taking into account not only the transversal waves excited by the hammer, but also the stiffness thanks to shear waves, as well as the longitudinal waves arising from geometric nonlinearities. The hammer is given an initial velocity that projects it towards a choir of strings, before being repelled. The interacting force is a nonlinear function of the hammer compression. The final piano model that will be discretized is a coupled system of partial differential equations, each of them exhibiting specific difficulties (nonlinear nature of the string system of equations, frequency dependant damping of the soundboard, great number of unknowns required for the acoustic propagation), in addition to couplings' inherent difficulties. ..."






Macy

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Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Mta88] #2220212
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FWIW, this appears to be a patent for Pianoteq's approach to physical modelling: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090241757 (and we've discussed this a bit in this forum before) I don't understand it much, except at a very high level, it appears to use additive synthesis for the sustain, and pre-computed attacks. I recall that Modarrt confirmed that the attacks are NOT sampled - they are genuinely pre-computed. The "additive synthesis" incorporates the physical properties of the piano - I do not mean to imply that it is not physical modelling.

EDIT: I'm not sure whether the whole "attack" is pre-computed, or just the portion of the attack that is non-pitched (e.g the "thud" sound). For example, I see in the patent that they mention the possibility of using a physical model of the hammer/string interaction to derive the "excitation parameters":
Quote
[0158]In a variant, the excitation parameters can be obtained in any other way, for example starting from a physical model that is representative of the string/hammer interaction.


So, it may be unfair to say that the whole "attack" is pre-computed.

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 01/24/14 06:34 PM.

Middle-aged Jeremy Clarkson acolyte.
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