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Re: Question: Differences between Hamburg and New York Steinway? #221865
02/15/08 10:37 PM
02/15/08 10:37 PM
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jazzwee Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by whippen boy:
Here is a photo of the music desk on the Hamburg C:

[Linked Image]

It has the same contour as Rod's 1929 Hamburg piano.
Whippen boy, mine is exactly like yours and David's. But Rods has sharp corners around the rounded areas,

Look closely at the corners. Rod's looks more geometric. However, they are definitely Hamburg shaped. It's one of the more notable stylistic differences of Hamburgs vs. the NY that are absent that corner 'wing'.

Whippen Boy, I'm jealous -- I want a bigger one...


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Re: Question: Differences between Hamburg and New York Steinway? #221866
02/15/08 10:38 PM
02/15/08 10:38 PM
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jazzwee Offline
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Norbert, I don't feel less 'accelerated' laugh

This has to be one of those examples of a 'marketing' feature.


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Re: Question: Differences between Hamburg and New York Steinway? #221867
02/15/08 10:40 PM
02/15/08 10:40 PM
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Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
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Correct! thumb

It certainly *is*.

Norbert shocked


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Re: Question: Differences between Hamburg and New York Steinway? #221868
02/15/08 10:46 PM
02/15/08 10:46 PM
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jazzwee Offline
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Notice how the rating of this thread was hit earlier today...More drive-by shooters.

Whoever you are: If you don't like Hamburgs then don't read this thread or speak up and don't be a weasel. I'm sick and tired of people like you whose only words are an anonymous rating.


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Re: Question: Differences between Hamburg and New York Steinway? #221869
02/15/08 11:11 PM
02/15/08 11:11 PM
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Alex Hernandez Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Keith D Kerman:
Quote
Originally posted by piqué:
[b]
i've always been given to understand that hammers are selected based on the totality of the string scaling design. and perhaps most importantly, the level of tension in the strings.

are the hamburg and new york scale designs significantly different when it comes to string tension?

i would have thought that with the more brilliant sound of the hamburg piano, the string tension would be higher, hence they need the harder renner hammers.

if that is so, isn't the use of the hamburg hammers in the new york piano incompatible with the new york scale design?
Off the top of my head, I don't think the Hamburg pianos have a higher string tension. I seem to remember the bass sections actually having a lower tension in certain models. With that being said, soundboard impedance is a major factor in determining the hammer you choose.

[/b]
As the scale moves from bass to tenor to treble the string tension increases on every piano.

Keith really hit the nail on the head with his comment about the impedance of the board. Since the hammer has to drive the board, how free the board is determines in great part the hammer philosophy that the maker may choose.

If the board is very dense with the resident impedance established at a very high percentage of it's tensile strength then a harder hammer is needed to drive the board.

I think the lack of a diaphragmatic board in the Hamburg instrument supports the contention that the Germans do a better job at establishing a soundboard/plate/inner rim relationship and therefore the board works efficiently with out the need to loose mass in order to move.

Fascinating subject, I'm glad I found it.




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Re: Question: Differences between Hamburg and New York Steinway? #221870
02/16/08 12:06 AM
02/16/08 12:06 AM
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piqué Offline
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and so therefore wouldn't hamburg hammers be inappropriate in the new york models?


piqué

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Re: Question: Differences between Hamburg and New York Steinway? #221871
02/16/08 12:12 AM
02/16/08 12:12 AM
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Alex Hernandez Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by piqué:
and so therefore wouldn't hamburg hammers be inappropriate in the new york models?
Not necessarily, you very correctly brought up the fact that N.Y. Steinway lacquers their hammers to harden them, a hot pressed Renner establishes it's compositional character in a different way, even though they may still be lacquered somewhat.

I would be interested to hear Yamaha or Imadegawa hammers on a new york Steinway, after some extensive voicing the result may be surprising.




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Re: Question: Differences between Hamburg and New York Steinway? #221872
02/16/08 12:12 AM
02/16/08 12:12 AM
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So. California
jazzwee Offline
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Alex Hernandez, are you saying you think it's a matter of build and not materials?


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Re: Question: Differences between Hamburg and New York Steinway? #221873
02/16/08 12:15 AM
02/16/08 12:15 AM
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So. California
jazzwee Offline
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Whippen Boy, I looked again more closely and my 'wings' are much smaller than all of yours, almost modern looking (funny to say about a 1919 piano laugh )


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Re: Question: Differences between Hamburg and New York Steinway? #221874
02/16/08 12:17 AM
02/16/08 12:17 AM
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Alex Hernandez Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Alex Hernandez, are you saying you think it's a matter of build and not materials?
No, I'm not. I am saying that you can't separate one component of the scale and attribute the tonal character as belonging solely to it.

Wool fibers also play a big role as long as the production and prep process doesn't destroy them.




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Re: Question: Differences between Hamburg and New York Steinway? #221875
02/16/08 01:13 AM
02/16/08 01:13 AM
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Hamilton Twp, NJ
curry Offline
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I played a NY D a few years back with Imadegawa hammers. They were certainly an improvement over the S&S stock hammers.


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Re: Question: Differences between Hamburg and New York Steinway? #221876
02/16/08 01:50 AM
02/16/08 01:50 AM
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Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
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Quote
I played a NY D a few years back with Imadegawa hammers. They were certainly an improvement over the S&S stock hammers.
This is bordering on blasphemy....

Norbert :t: laugh


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Re: Question: Differences between Hamburg and New York Steinway? #221877
02/16/08 02:48 AM
02/16/08 02:48 AM
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Norbert, there's a rebuilder over that uses only Tokiwa hammers on Steinway rebuilds...

I had to admit that whether or not it sounds good, I'd feel a little uncertain about that piano. Rebuilder claims that he can make the touch much lighter.

It probably works great but I suppose most would consider this heresy laugh


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Re: Question: Differences between Hamburg and New York Steinway? #221878
02/16/08 04:29 AM
02/16/08 04:29 AM
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San Francisco
whippen boy Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by jazzwee:
Whippen Boy, I looked again more closely and my 'wings' are much smaller than all of yours, almost modern looking (funny to say about a 1919 piano laugh )
I went looking for your wings laugh but don't see them in your photo. Can you point me to other photos of your piano?

Oh, never mind - I just did a search and found this thread: Jazwee\'s piano

I see what you mean - your music desk is very 'moderne' looking!

I'm the guy that also plays a model "O" - but it is not a Hamburg.

I see your piano has that simple molding around the sides (at the bottom edge) - that's the only thing that makes your piano seem a bit older.


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Bösendorfer Imperial
Re: Question: Differences between Hamburg and New York Steinway? #221879
02/16/08 05:17 AM
02/16/08 05:17 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 4,346
North Hollywood CA.
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Alex makes a valid point which I strongly agree. When one performs many restorations on particular mdls.whether Steinway or different manufactures of specialization one can see a pattern develop as for compatibility or incompatibility of the relationship of hammer and soundboard impedence. There are many other variables aside from soundboard and hammers but the combination of the two reflect greatly on tonal charactor. As Keith had mentioned earlier which I am also in agreement,ex.Hamburg Steinway hammers can sound better in certain applications based on the size of the piano. Lately I can hear the difference in a new Bolduc soundboard vrs. a new Alaskan Sitka Spruce board,which we do both with the same hammer combination. Of course,a great bellyman could make an orange crate sound good. You go with what works based on the client's personal,subjective preferance.

Rod, I didn't realize that Hamburg Steinway (1929)was that old. The one we did looked very similar but was from the 1960's. Hamburg factory definitely switched to polyester by than.
Jazzwee's 1919 Hamburg O was all original when I acquired it and it too was lacquer.


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Re: Question: Differences between Hamburg and New York Steinway? #221880
02/16/08 05:31 AM
02/16/08 05:31 AM
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So. California
jazzwee Offline
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whippen boy, yeah that bottom trim gives it the art deco look of the period but very restrained. David's has the same bottom trim though the music desk is more elaborate.

I kinda' like having an unusual piano.

According to the Steinway records (from Steinway), my piano was originally mahogany and was originally brought to NY.


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Re: Question: Differences between Hamburg and New York Steinway? #221881
02/16/08 12:00 PM
02/16/08 12:00 PM
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Posts: 512
Sterling Heights, Michigan
M
Mat D. Offline
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Sterling Heights, Michigan
Concerning hammers....I replaced my Renner Blues in my M&H BB w/NY Steinway D Hammers.....MUCH improved.

I had the option to use the Hamburg Renner hammers, but I was afraid it would be a mismatch w/the BB....seems the BB sound is better suited to the cold pressed design....my tech has voiced them up slowly and beautifully....Along with the hammer change was the Stanwood action upgrade (with accelerator springs)....The Steinway hammers are heavier than the orig Blues, but with the Stanwood action design this is no problem, an asset, in fact....The bass on my BB is like no other i have heard....yet it is balanced with the rest of the scale.....

my experience w/Steinway hammers.
Mat D.

Re: Question: Differences between Hamburg and New York Steinway? #221882
02/16/08 12:02 PM
02/16/08 12:02 PM
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New York
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New York
Norbert and Jazzwee- I disagree, the NY action is faster than the Hamburg action. As for the hammers it is my understanding that NY is hardening them more at the factory now. Rod-You are probably right but if S&S goes forward with using the NY parts in the Hamburgs they might do it in stages as you suggest. Could an existing Hamburg action be modified to an accelerated action?

Re: Question: Differences between Hamburg and New York Steinway? #221883
02/16/08 01:49 PM
02/16/08 01:49 PM
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By the way, the Hamburg "C" (I have been mentioning) has been Stanwoodized and has NY hammers - the touch is great.

So in that sense, it is not really a true Hamburg.

It is just about time to be re-strung, so that will be an interesting process.


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Bösendorfer Imperial
Re: Question: Differences between Hamburg and New York Steinway? #221884
02/16/08 02:32 PM
02/16/08 02:32 PM
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Vancouver B.C. Canada
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Quote
Originally posted by LJC:
As for the hammers it is my understanding that NY is hardening them more at the factory now.
_________________________________________________

The new hammers from Steinway New York are quite hard. I was disappointed with the last set I used on a "B" last November. My client was wanting that mellow sound and they were brighter than a Young Chang hammer. Mind you I was able to voice them down with little trouble, just lots of time.

I rather build up brightness, than bring it down.

I personally like using the Able Natural felt.
_________________________________________________

Originally posted by LJC:

Rod-You are probably right but if S&S goes forward with using the NY parts in the Hamburgs they might do it in stages as you suggest. Could an existing Hamburg action be modified to an accelerated action?
_________________________________________________

I do not believe Hamburg will go in stages. I did not suggest that.
I believe they "Hamburg" will continue to use Renner stack parts.
I could see them using the accelerated bearings for marketing reasons.
The bearing are a $20.00 balance rail part that they keys pivot on in place of a round felt punching used by all other piano manufacturers and rebuilders. That bearing is what makes the action "Accelerated" nothing else.
To install them in a Hamburg is doable.
I don't know anyone that does on a regular basis.
The improvements are hard to justify.
I have done it when requested by customers, that believe it is an improvement.


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