Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Question: Differences between Hamburg and New York Steinway?

Supposedly New York and Hamburg Steinway & Sons pianos (companies owned by the same parent co.) are more or less the same...but yet I realize that in fact the pianos are different. Can anyone point out the most significant differences between the two, either currently and/or in years past? Materials used, soundboards, action, etc? Having recently acquired a 1928 Model O Hamburg Steinway (for the church) I'm interested to learn about similarities and differences. Now that New York has reintroduced the Model O (replacing the L?) which it dropped in 1923, I'm wondering also if anyone knows why this happened.
Tacoma David

David Dahl, Director of Music Ministries
Christ Episcopal Church, Tacoma, WA

do a search on the forums for "hamburg new york steinway" and you will find more information than you could ever read. that has been a favorite topic of discussion over the years.

how much the current differences will apply to your 1928 piano, though, is something that may be more difficult to answer. if this a rebuilt piano that your church purchased, it is likely you have a new action, soundboard, etc...

Currently S&S seems to be making an effort to standardise the two factories production. In the past:
NY had diaphragmatic soundboard Hamburg did not.
NY had accelerated action Hamburg used an action produced by Renner.
NY had rims made of maple Hamburg had rims of beech and birch.
NY had NY produced hammers Hamburg used hammers from Renner.
Hamburg embraced high luster laquer finishes and later polyesther finishes.
Hamburg fits and finishes were/are superior.
In spite of the same or nearly the same scale designs, Hamburgs sound European and NY sound domestic.

Hamburg is used in most Concert Halls NY it is not.

the biggest difference in the tone comes from the hammers. hamburg uses a renner designed for them, which are a hot pressed, very hard hammer. new york uses a cold pressed hammer produced at the factory in astoria. these hammers are hardened with lacquer rather than compression.

Thanks for the replies thus far, which are very informative. I know that the piano was restored in a Los Angeles shop (but have not been able to determine exactly which one). I'm working on that. I know the piano has a new Renner action, strings, pin block, but don't know if the sound board has been replaced. Would it be exceptional to continue using the original or much more typical to replace the sound board at 80 years? I understand that the "life" can go out of them, but I wonder if there may be significant exceptions to that...that is, are there tests to make at the point of a piano's rebuilding? The piano has good color, good sustain, and certainly does not lack for power (when called upon). Thanks to all of your for your responses thus far.
David (Tacoma)

Soundboards last indefinitely. There are many pianos with full, rich tone that are 80 years old or older with their original soundboards.

Tacoma David
What I was told 2+ years back was that the N.Y. factory had consulted with the Hamburg factory in hoping to improve the power and sustain of the N.Y.mdls. The Steinway O and short A have always been in production in the Hamburg factory. They evidently decided to streamlinre the mdls. of both factories and discontinue the "L" in N.Y. Both the most modern (curved bass bridge /duplex scale) "O" and the "L" though different in the shape of their tail,size etc. still retain the exact same bass string scale.

Keep us informed,I'd love to know who restored this piano in 1999 in that we are also in L.A. I know everybody as for restoration and everybody knows us.

Here is a link to a thread on some of the differences.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/1/3578.html#000000

Both NY and Hamburg Steinways are used in concert venues

pique said:


Although what you said is true, pique, I would add that there is alot more happening than just hammer differences. A technician with intimate knowledge of either hammer can get the desired tone from that hammer. There is a "Hamburg tonal model" that would persist, imho, even with another hammer.

It might take a little more work to get there, given, but these pianos perform the way they do because that is how the Hamburg staff wishes them to perform.

Excellent point, Rich.

We have never put NY hammers on a Hamburg Steinway, but we regularly put Hamburg Steinway hammers on NY Steinways. Even before voicing, the NY piano retains its character and would not be confused with a Hamburg Steinway by someone with experience on both pianos.

Design differences such as soundboard thickness, soundboard speaking shape, rib taper, number of ribs make the biggest difference. This is assuming equality of workmanship. We have observed quite a difference in workmanship between Hamburg Steinway and NY Steinway as well.

understood, rich. i was just trying to point to the most basic tonal difference that is heard. but of course all those other factors keith mentions are components as well. and certainly it should not be construed that a ny piano with hamburg hammers is going to sound just like a hamburg piano.

now i have a question to those of you who use hamburg hammers in ny pianos:

i've always been given to understand that hammers are selected based on the totality of the string scaling design. and perhaps most importantly, the level of tension in the strings.

my understanding is that lower tension designs require a softer, lighter hammer, and that higher tension designs demand a heavier, harder hammer.

are the hamburg and new york scale designs significantly different when it comes to string tension?

i would have thought that with the more brilliant sound of the hamburg piano, the string tension would be higher, hence they need the harder renner hammers.

if that is so, isn't the use of the hamburg hammers in the new york piano incompatible with the new york scale design?

Off the top of my head, I don't think the Hamburg pianos have a higher string tension. I seem to remember the bass sections actually having a lower tension in certain models. With that being said, soundboard impedance is a major factor in determining the hammer you choose.

Also, hammer weight and shape in addition to hardness are huge factors. It is dangerous to oversimplify hammers into categories based on hardness.

OK, so the answer your question regarding Hamburg Steinway hammers being incompatible with NY Steinway pianos is.......it depends.

Certain models of NY Steinway sound terrible with Hamburg Hammers. Certain models sound wonderful. In general, the larger Steinways work well with Hamburg hammers, and the smaller ones don't sound as well with Hamburg hammers.

There are a couple exceptions.

Keith
Are you refering to strictly Hamburg Steinway hammers not being compatible with the smaller N.Y. Steinways or also including Renner Premium Blues obtainable from Renner U.S.A.? If I remember correctly the Hamburg hammers being denser,bigger and wider are not worth the so called upgrade for fit and touchweight issues on the smaller Steinways(S and M) I still think G3 Renner Premium Blues sound consistently fine on a N.Y. S or M, better than most.Hammers are such a personal,subjective thing.

PB,

Yes, I am speaking specifically about Hamburg Steinway hammers. Quite different from the Renner blues.

And I even posted a link from NY Times showing the artist picking from the pool of Hamburg vs. NY Steinway concert grands.

I would imagine that in the US this would be mostly NY D's and probably the opposite in Europe.

Dear all who have responded thus far,

The several responses regarding Hamburg hammers, Renner premium blues, etc, now have me quite intrigued to find out what was used in this 1928 Hamburg O's restoration. Also, "pianobroker" suggested taking a photo beneath the piano to be able to determine if the soundboard is original.
I will do this. Perhaps my technician, Mike Reiter, can answer some of these questions if I cannot locate the restoration firm in Los Angeles that did the work in 1999.

Thanks everyone, I'm learning more and more.
David in Tacoma

PS The tuning stability is a little less desirable than I had hoped for; however, our church fluctuates between 70 on Sunday and sometimes a low of 45 during the week, with humidity fairly constant.
Maybe we need a Damppchaser. (The walls are unfinished cement, with stone aggregate floor--its a 1969 church with architecture from the period known as "Brutalism". The acoustic is great...about 2 1/2 seconds reverberation half full of people.

Tacoma, hearing a Hamburg being played regularly might assure that I always go to church That's some lucky church.