Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum quarter beat (in left hand) triplets in right

So I'm doing moondance by van morrison. right after the intro, basically when the left hand stops doing the Am7 > Bm7.

https://imgur.com/SsKoLCA

Sorry its the wrong orientation, it should be legible tho. Bottom left hand side, when it starts varying the left hand rhythm. What I don't understand is the triplets. My understanding of a triplet is that it would fit 3 into one beat... so you have to hit the note/notes 3 times in one beat. The measure just doesn't add up to me unless I'm reading it incorrect. I SHOULD ask my teacher but I didn't realize this was confusing me till just now. See typically I'd just hit my left hand and on each of the strong beat (the first beat) I'd start the triplet and then start the next triplet as i hit the chord. But I'm finding they don't quite line up like I'd expect, I'm thinking because of what I explained.

three played over two beats.

so if i was to time it, the left hand would pulse right after the 2nd note of the triplet and in between the two triplets?

first note of each triplet on the first and third beat respectively. Second beat and fourth beat between the 2nd and 3rd note of the triplet.

Can I ask why they can change it to 2 beats randomly?

Those are quarter note triplets, so 3 of them fit into a half note.
So in 4/4 time two groups of 3 quarter note triplets take a total of 4 beats or 1 measure.

(You may have them confused with eighth note triplets. 3 eighth note triplets would fit into a quarter note, or 1 beat in 4/4 time.)

I see, I totally thought they were values at 1 beat per three. Not 2.

Eighth note triplets fit 3 eighth notes into the time normally taken by 2 eighth notes.

Quarter note triplets fit 3 quarter notes into the time normally taken by 2 quarter notes.

I ended up recording myself doing the triplets with a metronome going and put the notes on my (new) whiteboard along with marks on when I should hit the chord. It really helped to visualize it then be able to slow it wayyyy down and finally be able to start practicing it. I have a feeling I'll wake up tomorrow and magically have it down.

I usually have a harder time with triplet half notes than shorter intervals but not in this piece. Give each one a nice accent too - you really want to make the change of rhythm stand out.

I think if you listen to Van Morrison sing this a few times you won't have any problems getting this rhythm perfect. In fact, next time you see it in a piece you'll just think, "Ah, Moondance, I know how to do this ..."

It's NOT DIFFICULT. By this I mean, you say the words "not difficult" as you play. On "not" both hands play together. On "diff" the RH plays its 2nd note. On "i" LH plays its 2nd note. On "cult" RH plays its 3rd note.

Or:

NOT----DIFF---I---CULT
RH------RH---------RH
LH------------LH

You have to know which rhythm to use for "not difficult" for that to work. My natural rhythm for "not difficult" is quarter, sixteenth, sixteenth, eighth.

Obviously, if you play it with the first note being a quarter, you know it's wrong. But if you try to make each segment even since it's clearly not a quarter note, then that goes a long way.

It is a mechanism to get you started, and once you get the order of things down, then you can go from there toward a true rhythm of 3 vs. 2. This is how I learned it and how I teach it. Of course, it helps having a teacher to help guide you to the proper sound.

I learned it with "not difficult" too - so many years ago. None of the mnemonics (is that the right word?) is perfect, but that one is easy to remember and fits well.

Sam

For me, it's only knowing how it should sound that guides me towards using the syllables the right way. I wouldn't have noticed I was using quarter/sixteenth/sixteenth/eighth for it except that I was working on 3 against 2 by other means the last time this came up. If I try to make each segment even without understanding the right sound of 3 against 2, I end up with four evenly spaced syllables. It's only by understanding 3 against 2 by other means that I can work out which way to push the rhythm of "not difficult". Of course if I had a teacher, they would illustrate this for me. But where it comes up is on PW offered as advice to people, and while it may make automatic sense to many people, I think it's important to issue the caution for people for whom it might not be automatic and won't even realize they're doing it wrong without more reflection.

Explaining that the rhythm for the syllables is 1 2& 3 would guide me to the right sound, but that also gives me the correct rhythm explicitly and makes the "not difficult" just an add-on rather than a primary illustration.

i can DO the triplets no problem, its getting the left hand to pulse properly WHILE doing the triplets. It came down to me having to get it slow enough and nailing it slow then speeding it up. The problem originally was I was having problems dissecting it. I'm really impressed with how well the video I did helped me.

@andy_platt Yea I was kind of already using "heavy fingers" right when the triplets started (when i was doing hands separate). Just because I thought it sounded better emphasized, glad to know theres a reason WHY it sounds better that way

In this piece yes. If you ever tackle Debussy's Arabesque #1 you'll find examples of two against three where you almost want the polyrhythms to blur away into the mist. (FYI, polyrhythm is the formal musical term for this kind of thing.)

An alternative to "not difficult" (which is a neat idea!):

Count the 3-against-2 in 6 "quanta" of equal length:

. . . Count "1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 ", evenly. A metronome
. . . might be useful to keep yourself honest.

. . . Triplets sound on 1,3,5

. . . Duplets sound on 1 and 4.

Start _very_ slowly, and work up the speed.

. Charles

PS -- Either nobody gave this suggestion, or I missed it.

I had no trouble with either rhythm independently. As an ex violinist of 8 years (10 year since I've played it tho) I have a feeling I grasp those types of rhythm fairly instantly/with little trouble. the way I talk myself thru it is i say ok as soon as the 2nd note of the triplet hits, lift my left hand off the key and back on for the 2nd beat and pulse again on the first note of the next triplet. It hits at the perfect time and that's kind of how I'm practicing it slowly just to be able to do it a bit quick and without thinking it about it eventually.

It's funny, I KNEW how to practice it, going incredibly slowly... let the brain do its thing and have at it a bit quicker and eventually becomes very easy.... I just didn't know how to slow the entire thing down while being correct until I did the video tape/metronome and could write it down and make these little rules i use to actually go thru the motions and get to that level... that and the quarter note triplet thing screwed me up because i didn't understand the sheet correctly haha.

I have a feeling getting these types of rhythms really internalized, hands together, you really start becoming the better pianist. feels cool to confidently say I'm starting to become a pianist!

everyone is all very helpful as well. Thanks a ton!! Can't believe how much you can learn in one thread haha

Update: got it down. thanks to everyone for their kind words and help!
I'm hoping to finish up moondance and submit it for the recital

I've looked thru, theres no different rhythms than what i've already got mastered. Now its just a matter of getting the second page down