Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Tried Bechstein, Bluthner, Bosendorfer and Fazioli today

It often is or 'should be'.

Pianos placed in one's living room no longer compete with all the others out there but are to provide harmony and fulfillment for the musical and creative sense of the owner.

"Best car" and "best whatever" is for children to discuss..

Norbert

What's your level of playing? Are you an amateur or professional?
Without knowing that, who really cares what you think. Not trying to be mean, just frank.
My 4 year old niece likes Chicken McNuggets better than black truffle infused gnocchi with lobster. No one is asking her to write reviews for Zagats...

I'm assuming you're just making a light hearted joke?
That's how I took it. And everyone who jumped on your post so indignantly--they're the punch line

This made me LOL. Agree with your and Ori's statements.
One should not take himself to serious or make oneself a benchmark for others.

I should add something like that to my posts as a footnote though mentioning my humble small piano is perhaps enough of a warning

???

I don't know why I even submit a contribution to this thread.

All I can say is - kindly desist and go and practice. On your respective pianos.

I'm not sure why you did either. If I wanted to discuss piano practice, I'd go to one of the other more relevant message boards. The 'Piano Forum' as far as I can tell is for discussing instruments, manufacturers and the differences between these. Sometimes things get a bit fiery, but I thought this thread had quite a lot of useful observations and contributions compared to some others.

There is a growing trend for people here to go beyond criticising each other's differing views on different piano brands, to complaining about why anyone even bothers to discuss these things in the first place. The clue is in the title of the message board.

Or maybe I should go over to Pianist Corner and tell people to stop discussing Chopin editions when they should be talking about NY vs Hamburg Steinways!?

I agree, Wim! I actually appreciate it when people disagree with me, or question my views. That's why I visit these message boards: I'm open to finding out more about this subject rather than defending my current opinion.

Right now, I'd really love to try some more Blüthners and reassess my views of these.

Why are Fazioli so expensive?

Two reasons:
1. People are willing to pay that because they think (and I don't have any reason to believe they are not right) that it is a fantastic instrument of the highest (musical and constructional) quality.
2. They are very expensive to create.

AJF. Will you marry me? That is the funniest thing I've read on here in ages LOL!

In Europe, they are not considerably more expensive than Bösendorfer or Steinway. Sometimes they are cheaper. But since Fazioli is not a historically established brand with a history of well over a century like the other big European names, the first reaction is often 'why is this piano I've never heard of so expensive?'

I don't know how familiar you are with the history of Fazioli, but George Kolasis gives a good summary here:

http://www.georgekolasis.com/fazioli.html

I have played all of the above-mentioned tier-one pianos well-prepped at a fine local dealer's shop and agree with the posters that all of them are great, just different. Perhaps the less-than-great experiences have more to do with dealer prep than piano difficiencies? I actually liked the C.Bechstein semi-concert grand's tone a lot--not "too bright, like a Yamaha", but clear and powerful. Surprisingly, the Bosie did not impress me as much as I expected, but it was a smaller model and should not be compared to a 7'plus piano. The Bluthner was a bit unusual, not my taste, but smooth. I did not even try the Fazioli because it was a smaller model and very pricey. I might go back some day and play one just to see what all the fuss is about. I really enjoyed a Schimmel K230, which is not quite in the same tier, but was so well-prepped that it competed very nicely with the others. I also think placement in the room has a lot to do with how various pianos sounded in the shop, of course. I think I would have been happy with any of the pianos I tried, but ended up buying a 2004 Mason-Hamlin BB eventually and love it, even if it isn't a tier 1 higher priced piano. I will go on record saying I love Steinways. My daughter bought a new one some years ago and I played it every day. The B and D are incredible, but I also enjoy the O and A. The smaller ones don't do as much for me. If I had all the money in the world and could choose any piano, which would be a wonderful situation, I would be auditioning the Steinways as much as any of the others. Again, dealer prep is very important with these, but they are really fine instruments.

I have never seen a Grotrian, a Steingraeber, or some of the other fine instruments mentioned here so often, but would love to see them some day. What a wonderful time it is in the world of pianos with even the far-eastern piano makers improving their products every year offering find instruments to customers of all means.

Yup, to be honest, there isn't a best piano. It depends so much on the condition and set up of the instrument. It also depends on the mood of the pianist, the room the piano is in, the repertoire perhaps, everything. The build quality of each instrument is largely similar at that level, as is the quality of parts. Of all the tier one group pianos I've played, I can't think of any that lack in terms of actual quality of parts or build. None of them was shabby in any way.

Then step down a tier to Kawai and Yamaha, and again I can't think of a shoddy Yamaha C or Kawai RX series, in fact I've only ever enjoyed myself when I've tried these instruments. Same of course with Shigeru Kawai, which is a beautiful piano.

What it comes down to at the end of the day is a matter of taste, and diversity. We'd really loose something if all the makers made the same instrument! Musicians enjoy the diversity of tone that's available. People are more frequently starting to play on makes other than Steinway here, even when the Steinway is available. That's not a comment on the quality of the instrument, nor do people think that Steinway is anything less than amazing, but sometimes it's nice to be able to work with a different palette, right?

They are pretty (what other piano uses real gold in the trim?). I don't think anyone will deny they are very good pianos, but they hit the sweet spot between price, sound quality, and appearance among the high-end pianos.

What a mature and sensible post. Thank you.

I answer each of your questions one by one. I hope I don't miss any:

pogmoger : "But just out of curiosity, I'm wondering why you 'finally' got around to checking out these other options now and not before you picked your Steinway?"

I started learning the piano when I was 9 (I am 32 now). Since the beginning , i always dreamed of having a Steinway. Once i reached the point that I could afford one, I didn't try any other brands. I went straight and bought my dream piano. I knew that this local store has all these other brands. But i always felt uncomfortable going there, since i am not a real buyer.

terminaldegree: Wow...that's a comprehensive review!

The Fazioli which I tried, has an asking price of $146,000 (not MSRP). I don't care if they use gold in their pianos, the sound didn't justify the price.

AJF[b][/b]:What's your level of playing?

Just to give you an idea, I am currently working on Beethoven Tempest Sonata. So I know what I am talking about.


What I stated in my original post, is my personal opinion. I was very impressed by Bosendorfer (225). It had such an incredible tune. I tried two Bechsteins of different size, both made me very unhappy.

There. There!

@onlysteinway, it's not what you say, it is how you say it.
You state it as a fact. That it is not to your liking is a different thing, and might very well be caused by (as others indicated) sub optimal prep levels.

The Fazioli is definitely "better" when it comes to dynamics such as the possibility to play ppppppp (if that even exists) then the average Steinway. (According to my brother whose repertoire is very advanced, he never stopped playing where I quit 20 years ago).

Where it comes to the sound, it's all a matter of taste:

Arthur Schnabel for instance insisted (before WWII) on having Bechsteins and called Steinways terribly loud.

Something else I want to point out here.

Some people I know, some piano teachers I know, some pianists I know, think that Yamaha C series is the best piano available. They think that all other pianos are somehow less than a Yamaha, and the Steinway is just an overpriced version of the Yamaha (honestly I have heard this before, quite a few times). They sit down at a Bluthner or a Bosendorfer and find it an underwhelming and even frustrating experience, even when the piano has been prepared to the highest degree. They find Fazioli too hard to control and they find Bechstein too harsh on the ear in the treble. They find the actions of all other pianos (particularly Kawai I notice, and Steinway) to be heavy and unresponsive.

What is the problem here? Is it with the pianos? Is the Yamaha C series really the best piano?

In fact, no. It isn't. The Yamaha C series is a brilliant piano, excellent quality, excellent touch and tone, but it is far from the best.

The problem is that Yamaha is an instantly gratifying piano to play. It's tone means that you feel instantly connected with the instrument, and the action is pretty precise. In fact, it's easy to coax many different dynamics out of the Yamaha without much effort.

The same can not be said for Steinway, Fazioli, Bluthner, Bechstein, Bosendorfer. These are pianos that you have to prove yourself to. These are pianos which you have to find it within yourself to coax different dynamic levels, control the tone. The Bosendorfer and the Bluthner for instance, are so rich in sound that if you pedal the same way as you do on a Yamaha, the piano will sound over-pedaled. The Fazioli and Bechstein in particular, in fact all of the above really, are set up in such a way that if you push the cantabile sound in the octave above middle C in the way you need to on a Yamaha C series, the piano will sound bashed. The Bechstein, Bluthner and Bosendorfer sound such that unless you know how to produce a true legato in your own touch, the notes will sound disconnected in sustained passages. Unless you know how to get right into the keyboard to play fast pianissimo passages, the piano will sound like you're brushing the strings with a feather. These are all things on the Yamaha C series that come easily - and to a lesser extent on the Kawai RX series too.

In other words, it is my experience as a concert pianist, that the top tier European pianos force you to re-evaluate your technique and musical ideas, and play in a deeper and more insightful way, with a far more secure technique. You really have to live up to these instruments. The Yamaha C series provides a good workhorse, a good introduction to the grand piano if you like, but there are many things that it just can't give you.

This is not actually restricted to the Yamaha C series, but I find it to be the case with many of the lower priced pianos that are trying to live up to the Yamaha, if you like.

Now, is there anything wrong with having a piano that is instantly gratifiying and requires minimal musical effort? Well, perhaps not, but that is another debate.

What is true, I have also noticed, is that those who are used to playing and practising on tier one pianos sound better on the Yamaha than those who only practise on the Yamaha.

Joe, thank you for this. It really is very insightful, and I appreciate that you have got down to some specific differences in how to approach these pianos to get the best results.

What you say about pedalling in particular makes a lot of sense to me, and it may be why I didn't get along with the Blüthners very well. I do remember feeling that I struggled to control the sound, and felt it was either coming out too mushed together or not sustained enough. With more time to get used to the responsiveness of the pedal, and a more subtle/refined technique I could have had a different result.