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Old Baldwin Grand - How Old is Too Old to Buy? #2209118
01/06/14 03:32 AM
01/06/14 03:32 AM
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MaryU Offline OP
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I’m interested in purchasing a used Baldwin grand piano that is for sale in the neighborhood, but have several questions. I noticed that this online forum has provided a lot of valuable insight. Thanks in advance for any guidance you can provide. 1) MODEL, SERIAL NUMBER, & YEAR. On bottom of piano near right side of keyboard, it is stamped, “B 76260”. Does that mean it is a Model B manufactured in 1935? 2) MODEL B SIZE. If, in fact, this is a Model B, it doesn’t jive with other info I found elsewhere on this online forum. I thought a Model B was only 4’10”. This piano measures 5’6”. Can a pre-war Model B be 5’6”? 3) HOW OLD IS TOO OLD? If, in fact, this piano is from 1935, is it too close to “end of life” to invest any money in? Owner is asking $5K. 4) HOW TO IDENTIFY THE SERIES? Elsewhere on this forum, I read that one should select a Baldwin grand from the “Artist Series” & not a “DH Baldwin”, “Baldwin Classic”, “Baldwin Hamilton”, or “Baldwin Howard”. How does one distinguish one from the others? Are these words clearly marked on the piano somewhere? Based on the markings I see (B 76260), what series is this? 5) HAIRLINE CRACKS ON SOME OF THE KEYS. I noticed some hairline cracks on the front edges of the ivory keys. Is this a concern? Do you have suggestions on how to fix & maintain? 6) SCALE DESIGNATION. I saw mention elsewhere on this forum the words “scale designation”. What is the definition of scale designation, what is preferable & why?

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Re: Old Baldwin Grand - How Old is Too Old to Buy? [Re: MaryU] #2209125
01/06/14 04:08 AM
01/06/14 04:08 AM
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Unlike a Steinway, Baldwins often had case numbers stamped throughout that have nothing to do with the serial. The serial and model should be stamped on the plate under the music rack between the bass and tenor sections. The various sub classifications of instruments made by Baldwin depend on the year, but the name stamped on the fallboard (keycover) will be a big clue. If it is anything but a Baldwin it will say so.

I wouldn't worry about the scale and any other buzz words you may hear or see printed on the instrument. What is important is the condition it is in (not just the exterior), the quality of its musicality, and what your expectations are given your budget. Any used piano will be in need of some work. It's up to you to decide how much you may be willing to invest.

In all cases if you find that the piano "speaks" to you and you are interested, pay a qualified technician to evaluate it for you and give you a sense of its condition and the value you are getting... as well as what you might be getting into. Baldwins are very desirable instruments and the larger grands are sought after for their rebuilding potential as are other big name American pianos.


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Re: Old Baldwin Grand - How Old is Too Old to Buy? [Re: MaryU] #2209129
01/06/14 04:39 AM
01/06/14 04:39 AM
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If the 76260 is the Serial it seems to be from 1913.
Too old does not exist however in unrestored condition there is most likely a lot of work to do.
More info on Baldwin Models here:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...1/topic/024652/Number/0/site_id/1#import

Artist Series is (as far as I know) post war.

Re: Old Baldwin Grand - How Old is Too Old to Buy? [Re: MaryU] #2209213
01/06/14 09:29 AM
01/06/14 09:29 AM
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Mary,
Does the piano you are interested in look like this? This is a 1920 Baldwin E that I rebuilt and is about the same length as the one you're referring to. The serial number on these pianos are usually printed on the plate up front in the tuning pin area (unless it has been painted over). It can also be found underneath on the belly rail on the treble side. On the tail end of the plate the model letter is usually cast into the plate (E for the piano in the photo). I can take some pictures of the exact locations if you would like.

The Baldwin grands from this era are built very well and sound very nice when properly rebuilt.


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Re: Old Baldwin Grand - How Old is Too Old to Buy? [Re: MaryU] #2209217
01/06/14 09:41 AM
01/06/14 09:41 AM
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Hudsonville, Western Michigan,...
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The biggest item that needs to be answered is, "is there front bearing?" Most grands can use a new soundingboard after only 40 years due to loss of crown to the soundingboard. Get a rebuilder who knows this stuff to evaluate it. There are a lot of untrained "tuners" out there who consult the "black hole" of their ignorance and find a answere there for you. Don't believe them. Get a guy who replaces soundboards and has well reputationed experience.

Start with a new soundboard if there is no bearing/crown.

I own 2 Baldwin model r's, 1 model M and one model L.


David Postma, Associate Member, PTG Lansing, Michigan
Re: Old Baldwin Grand - How Old is Too Old to Buy? [Re: MaryU] #2209278
01/06/14 11:23 AM
01/06/14 11:23 AM
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There was a model B built in the 30's. I haven't pulled out a tape measure, but 5'6" sounds about right. I haven't seen many. On a Baldwin, the scale designation is usually cast into the plate at the tail end, beside the bass bridge. This is often different from the model designation, which is stamped in front of the serial number. It seems that you found the model and serial number correctly. The 4'10" B "Classic" series piano, built in the 80's and 90's, should obviously be much newer than the piano you are considering.


Roy Peters, RPT
Cincinnati, Ohio
www.cincypiano.com
Re: Old Baldwin Grand - How Old is Too Old to Buy? [Re: MaryU] #2209283
01/06/14 11:27 AM
01/06/14 11:27 AM
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Refreshing to hear you talking about soundboards! So many older pianos have no bearing, and the treble goes completely dead in comparison to the rest of the piano. My Bluthner is getting that way now, (I've got a new piano 'in the post' as it were so no despairing...) but I have it lined up for a rebuild with a new board. Many people here in the UK tell me it's ripping the heart out of the piano... in my opinion it is the best way to restore the tone. The only way, infact!

I have seen some Steinways with excellent boards that don't need replaced, but they've been the exception rather than the rule.

Re: Old Baldwin Grand - How Old is Too Old to Buy? [Re: MaryU] #2209379
01/06/14 01:20 PM
01/06/14 01:20 PM
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"...MODEL B SIZE. If, in fact, this is a Model B, it doesn’t jive with other info I found elsewhere on this online forum. I thought a Model B was only 4’10”. This piano measures 5’6”. Can a pre-war Model B be 5’6”?..."

In truth, a 5'6" piano is a much more reasonable size, as far as getting a good, musical sound, than one which is 4'11". I can't speak to which model this would indicate.

"...3) HOW OLD IS TOO OLD? If, in fact, this piano is from 1935, is it too close to “end of life” to invest any money in?..."

Not as such, no. It depends on the quality of the piano at its building, and on the condition in which it has survived. The way to learn both of these facts would be to have a qualified piano technician, in your employ alone and not financially interested in the sale, inspect it for condition. You might try http://ptg.org to help you find such a person. He or she will also be able to advise you of its fair value in the local market, and give a general estimate of what the cost might be to put it in order.

Rebuilding a piano--- in other words, making it like factory-new--- is a substantial cost, so normally one would only invest this in an instrument which was of a quality, when new, to justify it.

"I read that one should select a Baldwin grand from the “Artist Series” & not a “DH Baldwin”, “Baldwin Classic”, “Baldwin Hamilton”, or “Baldwin Howard”. How does one distinguish one from the others? Are these words clearly marked on the piano somewhere? Based on the markings I see (B 76260), what series is this?"

You seem unusually well-informed, compared to many piano shoppers--- it bodes well for your ultimate success--- not to mention that you have the good taste to be looking for a Baldwin. It is one of the great American pianos, or was. Your questions relate to the first part of the previous question: "the quality of the piano at its building," if I may quote myself. When shopping for a tech, try to find one who is knowledgeable about the Baldwin models. PTG Piano Technicians Guild may be able to advise you. I've heard that the President has even made calls himself to try to round up a suitable tech for a particular customer. But in general, you have ranked their pianos from the highest tier, to the consumer grades made for the mass market (and sometimes not by Baldwin). A mishmash of markings and models is not unique to Baldwin; there are markings placed on pianos at various stages of their manufacture, as well as those indicating serial number, manufacturer, and model. It can very well take an expert to untangle their meaning.

"...5) HAIRLINE CRACKS ON SOME OF THE KEYS. I noticed some hairline cracks on the front edges of the ivory keys. Is this a concern?..."

No. Replacing keycovers is a minor repair. You may be thinking of the question of cracks in the soundboard, or worse, on the bridge. Cracks on the soundboard do affect the sale value, but unless they affect the sound they are not that significant (unless they're getting worse fast, which can reveal a very serious problem). They can be shimmed (a moderate-level repair job), or if the soundboard is very seriously damaged it can be replaced (a very big job). Bridge cracks are very bad news. But cracks in the laminate material which covers the keys, no.

"...What is the definition of scale designation, what is preferable & why?..."

You jump right to the hard questions, MaryU! You may get better answers from a tech, a rebuilder, or a scale designer--- we have them all here, and I'm certain other members won't hesitate to jump in and correct what I say--- but in general a scale design is an effort to adjust the length and thickness of the strings, the placement of the bridge, and other features such as the length of the backscale and the size and shape of the soundboard, so that it comes as closely as possible to a perfect match of these disparate features. In a perfect world, it could be done; however, a piano would be 20 feet long and cost a fortune. So, wrapped strings are employed in the bass and part of the tenor register, to reduce the need for the strings to be so long. But then, the boogerman of inharmonicity leaps out of the piano case; it relates to the thickness of the strings and the property which makes perfect tuned intervals of the thirds and fifths not add up to perfect octaves across the diapason. So, scale designers and tuners have to cheat a little, and squeeze some intervals, stretch others, and then octaves stay octaves. Scale design is a balancing of compromises, and something of a dark art. The human ear does not hear all frequencies equally well, and that is another factor. Little strings in the treble don't carry as much energy as longer and thicker strings on lower notes, so some notes may have a single string, some will have two, others will have three.

Then again (speaking of cheating), some makers don't bother their heads and just copy someone else's scale design, with no understanding of whether or why it works, or not, with their case, hammers, soundboard, bridge, backscale, etc.

What is preferable? The one that sounds well to the ear, and tunes more gratefully under the tuning hammer. There's an encyclopedia of information in every keypress, fascinating if you're interested--- even as an amateur like myself. 'Scale designation' refers to which scale design a maker has used in a particular instrument model line. These can evolve over the years in which a line is in production, so the same model might bear a mark designating which scale design was used. Sometimes you see it as a suffix to the model name, eg Model 22, Model 22b, 22c etc.


Clef

Re: Old Baldwin Grand - How Old is Too Old to Buy? [Re: SMHaley] #2209832
01/06/14 09:51 PM
01/06/14 09:51 PM
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Columbus, Ohio
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MaryU Offline OP
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Thanks, SMHaley! Per your suggestion, I hired a local RPT who looked at the piano this evening. He confirmed my suspicions that it was a pre-war "B Series" Baldwin from 1935. Unfortunately & coincidentally, he happened to be the same guy that has been maintaining the piano for the current owners for years! (I had no idea! I just selected his name from the ptg.org website as a local guy. So, I believe his evaluation could be a bit biased.) His eval was that no work was necessary; it's in good condition; & that it is worth between $5K & $6K. He felt the soundboard would not need to be replaced for another 20 years. I'm going to investigate Larry Fine's book to see if $5K is a fair price for a 1935 Baldwin Series B (5'6") grand in "very good" condition (for its age) is appropriate. Do you guys agree that that's a good next step?

Re: Old Baldwin Grand - How Old is Too Old to Buy? [Re: WimPiano] #2209833
01/06/14 09:53 PM
01/06/14 09:53 PM
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Columbus, Ohio
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MaryU Offline OP
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Thanks, wimpiano, for the info on the Artist Series & the link.

Re: Old Baldwin Grand - How Old is Too Old to Buy? [Re: Hedahl] #2209834
01/06/14 09:57 PM
01/06/14 09:57 PM
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Columbus, Ohio
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MaryU Offline OP
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Thanks, Hedahl, for your post & for the photo. Yes, the Baldwin I'm interested in looks a lot like the 1920 Baldwin E you rebuilt. I did confirm with the RPT tonight, that the Model/Serial Number I found underneath the belly rail on the treble side was accurate. Thanks for your vote of confidence that the Baldwin grands from that era were well-built. It's a large investment for me, so I don't want to make a mistake!

Re: Old Baldwin Grand - How Old is Too Old to Buy? [Re: Davepost] #2209837
01/06/14 10:02 PM
01/06/14 10:02 PM
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Thanks, David Postma. When I talked to the RPT tonight, he told me that, although the soundingboard has a few minor cracks, it had been "refinished" & was in "good condition". He felt it would not need to be replaced for another 20 years if kept in a house with a humidifier in the winter & air conditioned in the summer (I live in Ohio). Does this sound right to you? Thanks, again, for all your help!

Re: Old Baldwin Grand - How Old is Too Old to Buy? [Re: RoyP] #2209844
01/06/14 10:05 PM
01/06/14 10:05 PM
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MaryU Offline OP
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Thanks, Roy P, for your vote of confidence that I located the Model Number & Serial Number correctly. And, also for confirming that there WAS a Series B in the 5'6" size in the 1930's. I had been worried earlier, since all I had read in the forum before was that a Series B was only 4'10".

Re: Old Baldwin Grand - How Old is Too Old to Buy? [Re: Jeff Clef] #2209852
01/06/14 10:17 PM
01/06/14 10:17 PM
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MaryU Offline OP
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Thanks, Jeff Clef, for taking the time for such a comprehensive response! You're terrific! I really appreciate the vote of confidence that a 5'6" piano is reasonable size to buy, that the piano is not too old if in good condition, & that a Baldwin is good. Also, thanks for the guidance about finding a good PTG member to help me.

You mentioned that I could replace keycovers due to the hairline cracks I see on the front edges of several keys. But, remember, this is a 1935 model, so the keys are ivory. I think I need to just live with the cracks & find a way to not let them get worse, right? Suggestions on maintaining and/or fixing ivory keys?

And, thank you for the education on "scale definition". I've learned so much about pianos within the last 48 hours of being on this forum. Thank you!!!

Re: Old Baldwin Grand - How Old is Too Old to Buy? [Re: MaryU] #2210082
01/07/14 09:47 AM
01/07/14 09:47 AM
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There are no new ivory keytops, but many techs have a supply of parts salvaged from old pianos that were being junked. The problem would be with matching the replacements for color, grain, etc. If the cracks are mere hairlines and are not unsightly or bothersome to the touch, it may not be necessary to do anything at all.

BTW, I should have said that inharmonicity is related to a string's stiffness, compared to a theoretical 'perfect string', instead of its thickness. Related, but not the same thing, exactly.

Last edited by Jeff Clef; 01/07/14 09:58 AM.

Clef

Re: Old Baldwin Grand - How Old is Too Old to Buy? [Re: MaryU] #2210132
01/07/14 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by MaryU
Thanks, Hedahl, for your post & for the photo. Yes, the Baldwin I'm interested in looks a lot like the 1920 Baldwin E you rebuilt. I did confirm with the RPT tonight, that the Model/Serial Number I found underneath the belly rail on the treble side was accurate. Thanks for your vote of confidence that the Baldwin grands from that era were well-built. It's a large investment for me, so I don't want to make a mistake!


A B is not the same as an E, even though they are about the same size. The B is closer to the modern R, with 26 bass notes. An E has 20 bass notes.


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Re: Old Baldwin Grand - How Old is Too Old to Buy? [Re: MaryU] #2210556
01/07/14 08:32 PM
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Unless you just LOVE this piano, I think 5k is far too much for a Baldwin grand of that age. I sold a 1978 Baldwin R in the Los Angeles market (which is BIG) for $5,000, and that was after I had it sitting on the market for quite a nice period of time (a few months). The piano was structurally perfect, unlike the one you're looking at.

I'm not saying you shouldn't buy it, but I just think it's overpriced, unless you're in love with THIS piano and can have no other.


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Re: Old Baldwin Grand - How Old is Too Old to Buy? [Re: Jeff Clef] #2210657
01/07/14 11:43 PM
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MaryU Offline OP
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Thanks, Jeff Clef, for the info on ivory key replacements. The cracks are small, hairline cracks, so if I buy the piano, I wouldn't want/need to replace the keys right now, but great info for the future. Thanks!

Re: Old Baldwin Grand - How Old is Too Old to Buy? [Re: BDB] #2210661
01/07/14 11:49 PM
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Thanks, BDB, for telling me that the old Model B has 26 bass notes. I'm a real novice about pianos, so pardon me for showing so much ignorance, but, please tell me what the significance is about its having 26 bass notes. Is that a good thing or not? Is the sound apt to be better or worse than pianos having fewer bass notes? Really, I just want to learn as much as possible. And, you guys on this forum are so very, very knowledgeable. Thanks!

Re: Old Baldwin Grand - How Old is Too Old to Buy? [Re: Sam Rose] #2210668
01/08/14 12:01 AM
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Thanks so much, Sam Rose, for your assessment that $5K is too much to pay for a 1935 Model B. Heck, I was really surprised when the local RPT I hired told me it was worth $5K. I had hoped he would have said it was only worth half that! I went out to look at Larry Fine's online piano buyer guide to get more info, & only saw references to "grand, pre-1950, better brand 5' - better condition" ($2500 to $4K) & "grand, pre-1950, better brand 6' - better condition" ($4K to $7K). So, extrapolating, it looks like a pre-1950 5'6" Baldwin like this should be priced betw $3250 & $5500. Correct?? I was hoping Larry Fine's price guide would be more specific like the Kelly Blue Book for cars -- make, model, YEAR-specific. Sam & others on this forum, what do you think is a fair retail price for the 1935 5'6" Model B in question? (The piano sounds good to me, it's located only 2 miles from my house in Columbus, Ohio.) But, I DEFINITELY DON'T WANT TO OVERPAY. I just want to pay a fair price. Thoughts?

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