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Dear Dr. Kallberg:

I sincerely apologize to you. My taking that one "review" so (somewhat) seriously was not the wisest thing I've even done. I should have known better.

I have to admit that I am overly sensitive to anything that even hints that Chopin's relationship with Solange was anything but what it was.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I look forward to reading your book.

Kathleen

We've all heard about Neighborhood Watches. I propose that we establish a Chopin Watch.

Chopin's #4 prelude and the romance movement of his E minor concerto were heard on The Contemporary Masterpiece Theater yesterday on PBS.

I just love it when I can give my husband a jolt when I sit up and shout "Chopin!!"

Careful you don't give your husband a heart attack, Kathleen!

My usual reaction to hearing his stuff on TV, phone ring tones, etc. etc. is "There he is again!", sometimes accompanied by a deep sigh.

On the names of genres: The word "mazurka," by the way, got to us through Russian. As one source gives it, "The ancient Russian suffix for dance was "-ka" (no longer in use today) and thus many Russian dances end with "-ka", like schottischka, Korobushka, Kohanochka, Alexandrovska, and so on.  So in Old Russian, the term for "Mazur-dance" was "Mazur-ka". 
 (Note: Unfortunately, many sources, including Wikipedia, note that in the Polish language mazurka is the feminine form of mazurek, or that mazurka means Masovian woman in modern Polish.  But since Mazurka as the name of a dance is an ancient Russian word, its meaning in modern Polish is a separate and irrelevant etymology.)
" www.streetswing.com

Whatever we call this dance, the necessity of hopping twice in succession on the same foot is still causing me some issues. That just never happens in other dances I've done; it's always one foot and then the other. But I've got the hopping and kicking the other foot out at the same time down pretty well. It's aerobic, that's for sure.

Elene

".....the necessity of hopping twice in succession on the same foot...."

I think it helps us play mazurkas better if we keep this image in mind.
Really!!

(Anyway I think it'll help ME....)

Solenge is really Solange? I thought they were mis-spelling Stonehenge.

"My taking that one "review" so (somewhat) seriously was not the wisest thing..."

A handsome apology--- though I thought it was really the review's fault. Some delinquencies in these capsule reviews are easier to detect than others. One I saw recently had me baffled until I noticed they were discussing the wrong century; in fact, it was the review for a different book... and I learned nothing about the book I was interested in. Oh well.

Dear Kathleen,

No apology necessary; I'd taken no offense (even at the Amazon reviewer, whose prose probably just stumbled on the way to saying something rather innocent). But I appreciate your kindness nonetheless.

Jeff

Mark,

Well, perhaps the image of staying in the air an awful lot will help us play mazurkas... in a video my teacher gave me of the choreography we're working on, the dancers hardly seem to touch the ground at all.

I am, honestly, hoping that this practice will help me to play the darn things better, though at this point it's taking away from music practice time a bit.

Elene

Thanks to the kindness of one of our devotees, I "listened" to Siepmann's book on Chopin. I am still thinking about whether I liked it or not. He glossed over a lot of material that I thought would be essential to understanding the man. Then he gave too much time to Sand, which I thought could have been glossed over. I did learn a few things however. That cholera "pandemic" that hit Paris was unbelievable. People were dying at the rate of 2,000+ a day. How Chopin lived through it with his poor health is a miracle.

Near the end of the "book" Siepmann stated that Chopin was a "self-imposed" exile. (?) Chopin could not return home. He couldn't get a passport. The Russians certainly would have thrown him in jail or worse. Siempmann alluded to the concept that Chopin's not returning home added to the sympathy that many have for him.

Any comments?

Kathleen

I believe the idea that Chopin's exile was self imposed has the naivete of hindsight. When his father wistfully wrote to him that, he might be able to come back as "he hadn't actually taken part in the fighting." Chopin turned this off with a reply about what he'd heard was happening to those rebels who wanted the "right of return" to Poland - something like fourteen years hard labor in a Russian prison camp. The truth is we really don't know how little or how much Chopin was involved in that rebellion. Though the modern tendancy is to dismiss Chopin's misgivings, his contemporaries obviously felt differently. He had no trouble being given asylum in France as a political refugee and obtaining French citizenship and a French passport. There are some scholars who think, just by some of the specific contacts he made before and during his journey to Vienna, and the timing of his departure (changed several times because he was waiting, not dithering) from Warsaw, that he was had been used as an opportunistic courrier for the rebels. We'll never know. He could never have written about this to any family or friends for fear of implicating them. He could never have told his father, "I can't come back because my name may have been mentioned in certain circles." He may've had much better reasons for staying away than we'll ever know. When he visited his parents as Carlsbad he registered with the authorities as "Frederic Chopin, professor, birthplace Paris, France," not "Fryderyc Chopin, pianist, bithplace Zelazova Wola, Poland." Surely he had a reason for that pitiful subtrafuge. At Carlsbad some exiled Poles wanted him to give a concert which was subscribed to and then cancelled overnight, probably by Chopin himself in an attempt to keep a low profile. Then there's the mysterious envelope that he wrote to Fontana to destroy for him. He'd almost died on Majorca before writing that letter. It was obviously something he didn't want seen after his death.
The Russian police state was chillingly real in Chopin's "Poland." I have a good friend, a Russian, who now has US citizenship, and a US passport. Both times that she's returned to Russian she's told me exactly when she's supposed to return, exactly where she's going, begged me not to forget about her, and to pray for her. I doubt her anxieties are groundless.

Thank you so much, Frycek. If I live to be 100, I will never have the time to gain all the knowledge (and insight) that you possess.

You may have opened my eyes somewhat. All this time I have been thinking that Chopin, while proud of his ethnic roots, was fearful (and with good reason) of returning home. But if I am reading your post correctly, it is possible (notice I did say possible) that he may have had a few things up his sleeve and didn't stand by so seemingly innocently while so many of his countrymen were slaughtered.

As you state, we may never know the real truth, but I, for one, would like to think that he did what he could, in whatever way he could, to help the cause. Yes, composing over 50 mazukas did indicate that he knew where his heart was. But I hope he managed to try to do more for the country he so loved.

Kathleen

Impromptitude---

I tuned into the Encore channel just in time to see Bernadette Peters tell Hugh Grant (speaking of George Sand): "It's not your friendship that woman wants--- she wants your manhood!" He responds with a coughing fit, spraying her with a good dose of TB germs.

Next thing I know, Judy Davis is snatching the dueling pistol from the fainted Chopin's hand and winging her former paramour, to shoo him off.

Is the whole film this dramatic? Was Chopin's life? Seems they cover a lot of ground in five minutes. I've gathered that a great deal about his life was shielded from public scrutiny by his early biographers, in order that his myth not be tarnished. And no one's life has dialog this snappy.

Oh, well. "Impromptu." Fun for what it is, though I'm sure it would have the blood pressure of many music historians pegging the gauge. And as good an ending as any: Bernadette belittles Franz Liszt's music--- to his face--- and he wrings her neck on the spot. Chopin dumps her and takes off with Judy.
Piano music, credits, and no rerun later today, so this is all I get. Possibly it's just as well.

Jeff Clef, I've always found that film great fun but of course it's terribly inaccurate (apart from the costumes, apparently). There are a lot worse around. I honestly don't think that there is much, if anything, that biographers needed to hide to preserve Chopin's image. Particularly compared with his contemporaries he was a model of integrity and respectability, although by no means as conventional as some would paint him.

George's not quite ex, Malfille, did take a shot at George Sand and challenged Chopin to a duel. Chopin accepted the challenge and George Sand spent a frantic evening running about calling in favors from her male friends and ex's to have them pressure Malfille into backing down, which they did. Just as well, Chopin had done a bit of rabbit hunting with a rifle as a boy, but I doubt if he'd ever fired a pistol in his life.

The only thing about Impromptu that really sets bad with me is part of the portrayal of Liszt. He was a good natured individual and devout his whole life. He would never have been so mean spirited or sacriligious as to have "played God" in the snarkly little playlet that got them thrown of that country estate.

"...I honestly don't think that there is much, if anything, that biographers needed to hide to preserve Chopin's image. Particularly compared with his contemporaries he was a model of integrity and respectability, although by no means as conventional as some would paint him."

Mary-Rose, I just finished reading The Age of Chopin: Interdisciplinary Inquiries, edited by Halina Goldberg, 2004, Indiana University Press, ISBN 9780253216281. A book with some interesting information and ideas, which made an effort to "place" Chopin in his own time. Like many academic publications, you need a pick and shovel and maybe a chisel to extract the information from the over-dense wordiness, including some unusual words which are not worth looking up, as this is the one time in your life you will ever see them.

Still, times were different then, and part of the situation with Chopin included the myth-making and elevation-as-an-icon, of his personality and works, to that of a Polish big kahuna. Naturally, certain controversial or dangerous information was not presented to the public. It is thought he did work in secret to support the insurrection, for example. Some people think he liked guys. That stuff didn't make it into the biographies for another 100 years. It is understandable.

I wouldn't suggest he lacked integrity or respectability. But things are not so different today, in some ways. Celebrities and political figures have their public image, some of it created by the media, and their private life is not necessarily what the press agents would cook it up to be.

One thing that is different, though, is that persons who were still living after Chopin's death have little direct influence on biographies that are written today, the myth-making about Chopin-as-Polish-saint has kind of died down, and attitudes have opened up somewhat about such matters as sexuality. And, biographers are expected to offer proof in support of what they write. There is less of the fabrication out of whole cloth than once may have gotten by.

Except Impromptu, of course.

Jeff Clef, I've not read the Goldberg book but will make a point of doing so in the near future. Thanks for mentioning it. I have no doubt that Chopin would have supported the insurrection in any way he could, but that would not have been something that even early biographers felt need to hide as their reading public would always have been on the side of the oppressed Poles. I agree that any suggestion he was homo- or bi-sexual would have created a scandal, but there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest he was. I used to think, perhaps even hope, Chopin might have been gay until I did some proper research. He was not.

Clef, you definitely need to see “Impromptu.” It isn’t anything like those scholarly tomes you’ve been reading, but then it doesn’t contain any of those words that aren’t worth looking up because you’ll never see them again. This film has had a bizarrely powerful effect on some of the denizens of this forum, and it may grab you too.

Those who have known me for a while know I have “Impromptu” pretty much memorized, though it’s been quite some time since I’ve seen it. The funny thing is that hardly anything depicted in it actually happened, yet in a strange way it is “true.” Somehow it captures the essence of its subjects to a large degree. Though some of it is way off-- Frycek pointed out that Liszt wouldn’t have “played God” in that way (though it was truly hilarious), and I would say that none of them would have been likely to cook up a play that grossly insulted their hosts.

Frycek, I’ve read somewhere that the business of Mallefille threatening to shoot both Sand and Chopin, and the proposed duel, is not well supported by facts, but I really don’t know. The story of the large and impressive Grzymała getting between Mallefille and Chopin is colorful and appealing, whether true or not.

Chopin’s life wasn’t overly dramatic for the most part; it was awfully quiet compared to Liszt’s, certainly. We don’t find Chopin, say, heroically dogsledding through a Siberian winter like Mickiewicz, or making a public embarrassment of himself by pursuing a famous actress like Berlioz. But there was probably about as much drama and excitement as he could handle or would have wanted, I suppose.

I'm probably repeating myself, but: Chopin's sexual nature remains a matter of endless fascination (check Jeff K's book, for example), which is strange when you think about it, because really there's not much to tell. He had so sadly little in the way of romantic entanglements. It seems to be another area in which he holds our attention by being so hard to define. Yet there doesn't seem to have been anything unusual about him in that area. He quite definitely liked girls, but under the right circumstances he might have been interested in a guy, and could certainly have sincerely loved one, as he greatly loved Tytus. However, those right circumstances never occurred, and would have been extremely unlikely to occur during that lifetime.

I’m intrigued by the idea that the timing of his departure from Warsaw may have been determined by political necessities. As for the possibility of his returning to Poland, whether he had done anything definite to help the rebellion or not, he might have become a target because his music was a crystallization and celebration of Polish culture. Or perhaps his international fame would have protected him to some degree. I suspect that since both the Russians and the Germans in later times went out of there way to destroy his work, the authorities wouldn’t have appreciated him much.

Of all the untruths Mme Sand wrote about Chopin in her “Histoire de ma vie,” perhaps the worst calumny is her statement that he could have gone home any time he wanted. Perhaps, indeed, he could have-- but then it’s unlikely he would ever have been allowed to return to France again. He would have been leaving the large segment of Polish society that existed in Paris, his students, his musical colleagues, his apartment, his Pleyels, French food… and George herself, not to mention Solange, the closest thing to a child he would ever have.

A Polish friend of mine who emigrated as a teenager in the early ‘60s, needing some subterfuge to do so, expressed very strong feelings about this matter. She said that she would not dare to visit family in Poland until she was an American citizen and had an American passport in her hands. Even then, she was nervous. Very much like Joe’s Russian friend.

I won’t natter on too much about the police state we live in now, but I think it behooves us to remember that not only do huge numbers of people around the world live under such conditions, but we can create them for ourselves at any time, and do, in the name of “security.” We don’t need a foreign power to invade us. Right now New Mexico, along with a few other states, is in rebellion against the federal “Real ID” requirements. Because of that, starting Jan. 1 all New Mexicans will have to show passports to board even domestic flights. Our drivers’ licenses will no longer count for anything; we will be treated as non-citizens in a way. So it goes.

Elene

Yes, of course he could've gone home anytime he liked - there was just the little matter of what might've happened when he got there - - -

The unlikelihood of his being allowed to return to France was a given. It was only on his deathbed that he wryly wrote to his family that if he recovered he might escort Ludwika home. And if an end of suffering might be considered a recovery, he recovered in the only way he could at that point and part of him did escort her home, at last crossing into Poland covertly, under his sister's skirts, in a jar.

As for the duel - this is from the home page of the Fryderyk Chopin Institute in Warsaw - the least impeachable source that I know.

For the year 1838:

Since Halina Goldberg's edited volume The Age of Chopin came up, may I put in a plug for her Music in Chopin's Warsaw (Oxford, 2008)? This is a remarkably informative book about the musical culture that nourished the young Chopin; it contains a wealth of information not available anywhere else (especially in English). And it is a good read (it is entirely by Goldberg - not individual chapters by different authors as in the other volume). I think folks here would enjoy the book.

Jeff Kallberg

I enjoyed Impromptu very much (though I admit I would enjoy watching Judy Davis read the phone book).

The only thing I didn't like was a tiny (but disproportionately annoying) detail: the erroneous meaning of the moniker "Minute Waltz" (i.e., as referring to duration rather than minuteness) was reinforced.

I don't know if this was an ignorant goof by the filmmakers or a sly joke directed at the ignorance of others, but it didn't need to be there.

Steven

While all the above is quite interesting and informatative, I, for one, couldn't care less about Chopin's possible "gayness." Who cares?? What real difference does it make when one listens to any of his music? Look at Schubert. His music is considered the most lyrical and yet his personal life is, well, shall I say, a bit disgusting. Perhaps that word is a bit too harsh, but it was what is was.

And then there is Tchaikovsky. His music could break your heart, and yet his life was so tragic because of his sexual preferences.

I hope the following might be of interest to fans/friends of Hershey Felder. He does talk about Chopin, so this could be considered a Chopin Watch siting.


www.wttw.com


I am still stuffed from yesterday. I think I'll take another nap.

Kathleen