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Re: Chemically Induced Perfect Pitch? [Re: JoelW] #2209385
01/06/14 02:26 PM
01/06/14 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
I read the report. The drugs make the brain more plastic. The test results with the drugs yielded a higher percentage of accurate guesses than the placebo. So what? That doesn't tell us that they actually acquired perfect pitch.

Yes it does. They've isolated the drug as the sole cause.

Originally Posted by JoelW

It just means that their pitch is more accurate in general. How do they know these people weren't just using relative pitch more accurately and faster?

Because that's not what they were testing for.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
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Re: Chemically Induced Perfect Pitch? [Re: wdot] #2209394
01/06/14 02:34 PM
01/06/14 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by wdot
Leaving aside the merits of the discussion, I had a heck of a time trying to figure out what a "polopony" was. I started thinking that it was some kind of tangible element of musical value....

Oh, I think it's a kind of tangible element of every value! grin



....and I feel tempted to say that they would have a better chance of giving perfect pitch than that drug does, but I'll try to keep it almost serious....

Re: Chemically Induced Perfect Pitch? [Re: Atrys] #2209396
01/06/14 02:36 PM
01/06/14 02:36 PM
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Atrys, please see my post, above, regarding Valproic acid.

This post of yours in the other thread...

Originally Posted by Atrys
This is awesome.

Something like this would enable an enormous amount of possibilities for people who are wanting to acquire skills that are very difficult or impossible to acquire during adulthood (piano, etc).

I would pay big bucks out of my pocket if it meant benefits that rivaled or matched childhood skill acquisition.

Good stuff.


...sounds impulsive and foolish to me, especially given my experience with the drug.

From this thread:

Originally Posted by Atrys
[...] The side effects are one thing (there are side effects to any drug), but I'm not really talking about that.


One set of questions that are good to ask when considering whether to ingest any medicinal substance is: "How is this substance metabolized? What organs does it effect in my body as it addresses the target symptom? What are the long-term effects of this substance on my body?"

Drugs are serious business. (Yes, that is a multifaceted statement.)

Science is a useful methodology, but it always comes with an asterisk that says, "as far as we know, now." It also comes with a dagger that says, "science has proven to be as prone to moral corruption as any human endeavor." "Science" never trumps common sense, and "scientific findings" should never be accepted blindly. (I guess that last sentence should come with an "in my opinion," but there is an element of absolute to it that supersedes science.)

--Andy


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: Chemically Induced Perfect Pitch? [Re: Atrys] #2209397
01/06/14 02:37 PM
01/06/14 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by Old Man

He's a doctor who happens to also be a pianist, not the other way around, so I wouldn't be so dismissive of his opinion.

That's fine and all, but he's said some things that are absurd and outright illogical. I guess that's why they're his opinion (vs reality).

I think he made it clear that he was expressing an opinion. My only point was that on this particular topic, his opinion carries much more weight than those of the rest of us. (On musical matters, not so much. Mark gets pummeled just like the rest of us.) laugh

Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by Old Man

This is not to say that the "science" you refer to is bogus. There may well be something to it. But, from what I can tell, we're only talking about a single study? I would wait for a lot more peer review before jumping to any conclusions. But a more important question to me is: Given the very non-trivial side effects of this drug, why would anyone risk their health for such a trivial pursuit?

The side effects are one thing (there are side effects to any drug), but I'm not really talking about that. I'm just getting at the fact that so many untrained minds think they can dismiss actual science as "BS" outright, without any clue as to what they're even talking about.

Also, you may be missing the bigger picture here of what this means in general, not just for acquiring absolute pitch. This particular case was just an example, a proof-of-concept, of the implications of what this drug may be capable of.

And yes, some peer review and additional research will be very interesting.

Yes, there are side effects to every drug, including OTC products. I would also agree that the results of the research may lead to broader applications for the use of this drug. As long as it's something far more helpful to people than correctly identifying pitches in a musical scale, I'm all for it. Full speed ahead! grin

Re: Chemically Induced Perfect Pitch? [Re: -Frycek] #2209399
01/06/14 02:40 PM
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@Cinnamonbear
You take my words as if I said I wanted to take them right this instance. This is early research and if it proves to be something worthwhile, then that is simply awesome. Nowhere did I say I wanted a mouthful of this stuff right this second *rolls eyes*.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Chemically Induced Perfect Pitch? [Re: -Frycek] #2209413
01/06/14 02:58 PM
01/06/14 02:58 PM
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Whoa, people! Some of the comments here are ridiculous. The drug was laboratory tested; the question of whether this is fake or not is a non-issue. Here is the link to the actual research article:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24348349

Now, to clarify, the reason children learn languages and perfect pitch more easily than adults is due an evolutionary advantage to adapt to a wide array of environments. This type of adapting (i.e. changes in brain physiology commonly referred to as neruoplasticity) slows down as one gets older making it more difficult to learn. The pharmacological action of valproate acid (VPA) works by blocking GABA transaminase and the enzyme histone deacetylase 1, the latter of which results in enduring changes in gene expression. So as to not get totally muddled in neuropsychological jargon, the drug reopens chromatin (a mix of DNA and proteins that make up the contents of the nucleus of a cell) and allows for neuroplasticity of acoustic sounds, perhaps not as efficient as that of a child, but certainly more so than a typical adult taking a VPA plecebo.

There are other drugs that have been created for myoclonus, of which I experimented heavily with during graduate school, and are known as "smart drugs". The mechanisms of action, I would argue, would also result in enhanced neuroplasticity as I was capable of increasing my fluid intelligence score significantly on the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale (fluid intelligence has largely been assumed to be genetic and fixed). The idea of drugs that can enhance learning is not novel, rather we are simply beginning to better understand the neruopsychological action of these drugs. With more research, we will easily reach a point where we can rewrite much of our own genetic coding.

Now, let me be the first to say, I am CERTAIN that an individual can "re-start" plasticity in various domains of the brain with meditation. But this is a topic for another day.


"The more I play, the more I am thoroughly convinced that the pedal is the soul of the piano. There are cases where the pedal is everything"
-Anton Rubinstein
Re: Chemically Induced Perfect Pitch? [Re: Atrys] #2209415
01/06/14 03:01 PM
01/06/14 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by JoelW
I read the report. The drugs make the brain more plastic. The test results with the drugs yielded a higher percentage of accurate guesses than the placebo. So what? That doesn't tell us that they actually acquired perfect pitch.

Yes it does. They've isolated the drug as the sole cause....

NO.

Your enthusiasm for the idea is making you set the bar awfully low. They didn't show anything, much less isolate its cause.

First of all, as I had guessed, the sample sizes are very small -- far too small to do anything more than suggest a possible effect for further study. That would be the case even if the subject weren't something so seemingly unlikely; it would be the case for anything with such small sample sizes and such a relatively small difference between the results of the study group and the control group.

The sample sizes were 12 and 11. The differences that they found were probably around something like (and admittedly I'm guessing with this but it's an educated guess) the difference between a given baseball player coming to bat 12 times and then 11 more times, and getting 5 hits in the first sequence (5 for 12) and 3 hits in the second (3 for 11).
Possibly I didn't make the differences extreme enough. If Atrys or anyone wants to criticize it on that level, fine; let's say it's the difference between going 6 for 12 and 2 for 11. (I don't mean it's like this being the difference for each subject; I mean it's like the difference in the overall results.)

And those kinds of differences happen, just by chance, all the time. Also differences that are more extreme, like 8 for 12 and then 0 for 11 -- same player, by chance. It's not that unusual.

Also, looking at the study, as a couple of people said, it most certainly did not test for perfect pitch (BTW they call it "absolute pitch" but those are usually considered synonymous, so that's not an issue). I won't repeat what others have said about it, but just say (and not worried if Atrys or anyone says it's nonsensical and illogical) grin that it most certainly was not testing for absolute pitch or even relative pitch; it was a much, much lesser thing.

And one final thing: There wasn't really a valid control group. This is an issue any time you give a drug that has palpable side effects to groups of people who don't have any disorder or symptoms to be treated. (It's an issue otherwise too, but especially with such groups, because the side effects are more blatant to the people.) The people taking the drug almost certainly KNEW they were taking it. (The people on placebo probably just weren't sure one way or the other.) So, the "placebo effect" factor was almost certainly in place. The only truly meaningful thing you can test for in such subjects is side effects and dangers.

Originally Posted by ando
I think people need to relax a bit here - on both sides. For starters, I didn't see any mention of some impending program to prescribe this medication to anybody. It is only the subject of research. Mark C need not worry that doctors are going to be swamped with patients anxious to be put on this stuff.....

Hopefully not, but there's some risk of that. I see this study, if taken seriously, as a thing that could make people think it helps learning in general or at least various particular kinds of learning. And if so, the lid is off. smile

Re: Chemically Induced Perfect Pitch? [Re: -Frycek] #2209417
01/06/14 03:02 PM
01/06/14 03:02 PM
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@carkar
*gives another round of applause*

In the name of knowledge!


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Chemically Induced Perfect Pitch? [Re: Mark_C] #2209418
01/06/14 03:04 PM
01/06/14 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
it most certainly was not testing for absolute pitch

wink

Maybe you should re-read the research. You clearly missed some critical points that would clear the air for you :P


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Chemically Induced Perfect Pitch? [Re: -Frycek] #2209419
01/06/14 03:06 PM
01/06/14 03:06 PM
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I actually did look at the data and did not think it looked very impressive, even for a single study. As I understand it, their test had possible score of 18, with random guesswork likely to produce a score of 3. In the first trial, the test group scored an average of around 5, as opposed to roughly 3 for the controls. Ok. But then in the crossover test, neither test group nor control group did better than random.

The authors say they're focusing on the first trial because of the possibility of re-test results being skewed by exposure to the earlier test. But wouldn't experience with the testing be expected to mess up results in the direction of *better* scores? This did not happen.

As someone else pointed out too, it's quite a small sample (12 in each group, but they didn't all finish the study). Statistical significance doesn't always mean real significance.

I didn't see what the expected score on this test would be for someone with actual perfect pitch. But I might have missed it--didn't have time to read every word.


1989 Baldwin R
Currently working on:​
Schubert, Op. 90 no. 2
Sinding, Frühlingsrauschen (Rustle of Spring)
Beethoven, Sonata no. 14 in C# minor (Moonlight)
Re: Chemically Induced Perfect Pitch? [Re: Atrys] #2209420
01/06/14 03:08 PM
01/06/14 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
....he's said some things that are absurd and outright illogical...

Like what, my friend? smile

Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by Mark_C
it most certainly was not testing for absolute pitch

wink

Maybe you should re-read the research. You clearly missed some critical points that would clear the air for you :P

Well, I hope we won't be going back and forth on this (if need be I'll be the one to prevent it) grin ....but no, I didn't miss anything. What they tested was most certainly a lesser thing than not only perfect pitch but even relative pitch.

Re: Chemically Induced Perfect Pitch? [Re: Mark_C] #2209421
01/06/14 03:08 PM
01/06/14 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C

Hopefully not, but there's some risk of that. I see this study, if taken seriously, as a thing that could make people think it helps learning in general or at least various particular kinds of learning. And if so, the lid is off. smile


Even so, given the relatively narrow applications of this drug, how many physicians would be willing to prescribe it without some compelling reason? I'm sure you would be able to tell the difference between somebody seeking it for this experimental purpose, and somebody presenting with bipolar disorder.

I guess you could make a case for worrying about non-prescribed usage. I don't know how easy this drug is to come by "on the street", but I don't see it becoming an over-prescription problem very easily. In any case, most people who are interested in the capabilities of their own brain would most likely take the time to read about side-effects from the drug they are taking. If they still proceed on a self-prescribed program, well, you can't legislate against stupidity...

Re: Chemically Induced Perfect Pitch? [Re: Mark_C] #2209426
01/06/14 03:13 PM
01/06/14 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
[...] Hopefully not, but there's some risk of that. I see this study, if taken seriously, as a thing that could make people think it helps learning in general or at least various particular kinds of learning. And if so, the lid is off. smile


Not that you need it, Mark, but my respect for you has just increased by an order of magnitude that exceeds batting averages.

grin

It was always rather high to begin with, reading between the lines on PW as I am wont to do.


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: Chemically Induced Perfect Pitch? [Re: ando] #2209428
01/06/14 03:16 PM
01/06/14 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ando
[...]but I don't see it becoming an over-prescription problem very easily. [...]


Look back. Then look forward. Choose any drug. Extrapolate.


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: Chemically Induced Perfect Pitch? [Re: Mark_C] #2209430
01/06/14 03:18 PM
01/06/14 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C

Like what, my friend? smile

There's no sense in picking apart your fallacies bit by bit, since they're your opinions. If you asserted that your opinions were facts of reality, then we'd have a bigger problem and I'd question your ability to reason soundly.

Originally Posted by Mark_C

What they tested was most certainly a lesser thing than not only perfect pitch but even relative pitch.

Uhm how could you possibly say that with an honest heart? It is very clear that they tested for absolute pitch. I mean...it's pretty blatantly obvious. Check the "introduction", "training", and "test" sections. Aside from that, there's not much more I can say :P It's pretty straightforward and they lay out their procedure for testing absolute pitch very clearly and fairly well.


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Chemically Induced Perfect Pitch? [Re: Atrys] #2209432
01/06/14 03:19 PM
01/06/14 03:19 PM
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I think you just showed the level of how much you understand about this.

Re: Chemically Induced Perfect Pitch? [Re: Mark_C] #2209439
01/06/14 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
I think you just showed the level of how much you understand about this.

+1

Re: Chemically Induced Perfect Pitch? [Re: Mark_C] #2209441
01/06/14 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
I think you just showed the level of how much you understand about this.

Those online medschool programs don't teach you how to reason with sound logic do they wink


"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
Re: Chemically Induced Perfect Pitch? [Re: Atrys] #2209443
01/06/14 03:29 PM
01/06/14 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Atrys
Originally Posted by Mark_C
I think you just showed the level of how much you understand about this.

Those online medschool programs don't teach you how to reason with sound logic do they wink

lol wow

Re: Chemically Induced Perfect Pitch? [Re: Cinnamonbear] #2209451
01/06/14 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted by ando
[...]but I don't see it becoming an over-prescription problem very easily. [...]


Look back. Then look forward. Choose any drug. Extrapolate.


Oh sure, every drug has had exactly the same pattern of abuse... crazy

Even if what you were saying is true, and I'm not saying it is, you can't be advocating the suppression of scientific knowledge because you are afraid of the abuse of one drug in the many thousands which you claim are being abused? Could it be that this issue is a little too close to home for you? If any and all drugs can and are being abused, why be so selective about this one?

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