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#2208143 - 01/04/14 03:23 PM CM3 Record-a-thon  
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OK, Folks:

Kees has sweated his finger tips to the bone doing beatrate analyses for us. It is time for us to show our appreciation by doing what he has asked.

Everyone that can should tune a set of CM3s and post a recording of the ghosted beatrates.

I'll do this today or tomorrow, but am not sure what note to ghost with. I guess the note for the coincident partial, but won't that still give some odd ball beatrates, too?


Jeff Deutschle
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Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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#2208167 - 01/04/14 04:00 PM Re: CM3 Record-a-thon [Re: UnrightTooner]  
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What does "ghosted" mean"?

Last edited by Grandpianoman; 01/04/14 04:09 PM.
#2208168 - 01/04/14 04:04 PM Re: CM3 Record-a-thon [Re: UnrightTooner]  
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
OK, Folks:

Kees has sweated his finger tips to the bone doing beatrate analyses for us. It is time for us to show our appreciation by doning what he has asked.

Everyone that can should tune a set of CM3s and post a recording of the ghosted beatrates.

I'll do this today or tomorrow, but am not sure what note to ghost with. I guess the note for the coincident partial, but won't that still give some odd ball beatrates, too?

I think the idea is to remove the effect of the hammer in case it does not excite the 5th or 4th partial very well. Of course the higher partials 10:8 etc will still be excited.

I tried using the 7th (ghost F3A3 with B2) to excite just the 5:4 but I don't hear anything. It's probably too far off.

Correct, RXD?

Looking forward to the data.

Kees

#2208232 - 01/04/14 06:17 PM Re: CM3 Record-a-thon [Re: UnrightTooner]  
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Chris Storch Offline
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What does "ghosted" mean?

The lowest coincident partial match in a major third, (at least the one that we most commonly refer to, and which gives the major third its prominent beat), occurs at the fifth partial of the lower note and the fourth partial of the upper note. That's what makes it a 5:4 interval.

In the F3-A3 major third, the fifth partial of F3 is A5. The fourth partial of A3 is A5.

If you're going to ghost the beatrate of the F3-A3 third, silently hold down the F3 and A3 together. Then bash A5 with a staccato blow. You should hear the beat rate coming from the open strings of the F3 and A3 being held.

The same goes for every major third. Hold down the notes making up the major third silently. Then bash the note two octaves above the upper note of the third being held. Vila! Ghosted beat rates.





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#2208282 - 01/04/14 07:58 PM Re: CM3 Record-a-thon [Re: Chris Storch]  
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Thanks Chris.....:)

#2208292 - 01/04/14 08:43 PM Re: CM3 Record-a-thon [Re: Chris Storch]  
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Originally Posted by Chris Storch
What does "ghosted" mean?

The lowest coincident partial match in a major third, (at least the one that we most commonly refer to, and which gives the major third its prominent beat), occurs at the fifth partial of the lower note and the fourth partial of the upper note. That's what makes it a 5:4 interval.

In the F3-A3 major third, the fifth partial of F3 is A5. The fourth partial of A3 is A5.

If you're going to ghost the beatrate of the F3-A3 third, silently hold down the F3 and A3 together. Then bash A5 with a staccato blow. You should hear the beat rate coming from the open strings of the F3 and A3 being held.

The same goes for every major third. Hold down the notes making up the major third silently. Then bash the note two octaves above the upper note of the third being held. Vila! Ghosted beat rates.





Thanks, Chris.
Perhaps it goes without saying but I would only add that ghosting is most efficient when the piano is in tune already, or very close.
(at least all the notes being used for this).



Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


#2208339 - 01/04/14 10:36 PM Re: CM3 Record-a-thon [Re: UnrightTooner]  
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OK, Folks:

http://youtu.be/-CAF4X-8ads

Did all four sets from D3-A4. D,G,E & A were already tuned, but everything else was detuned. They are both played and ghosted. The F4A4 was ghosted twice because I needed to damper A6 with my finger.

I don't tune with CM3s, and I doubt that they are as accurate as advertised, but I tried my very best. Hopefully others will post some recordings. I am very interested in how accurate they really are.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#2208376 - 01/04/14 11:57 PM Re: CM3 Record-a-thon [Re: Chris Storch]  
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Originally Posted by Chris Storch
What does "ghosted" mean?

The lowest coincident partial match in a major third, (at least the one that we most commonly refer to, and which gives the major third its prominent beat), occurs at the fifth partial of the lower note and the fourth partial of the upper note. That's what makes it a 5:4 interval.

In the F3-A3 major third, the fifth partial of F3 is A5. The fourth partial of A3 is A5.

If you're going to ghost the beatrate of the F3-A3 third, silently hold down the F3 and A3 together. Then bash A5 with a staccato blow. You should hear the beat rate coming from the open strings of the F3 and A3 being held.

The same goes for every major third. Hold down the notes making up the major third silently. Then bash the note two octaves above the upper note of the third being held. Vila! Ghosted beat rates.





Thanks for explaining.

This really works, and you can hear the theoretical
6.93 beats/sec better when the fundamentals and other
partials are not there.

And as the other poster states, it's nicer to try
this on a piano that's in tune!

grin

#2208635 - 01/05/14 02:19 PM Re: CM3 Record-a-thon [Re: UnrightTooner]  
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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The problem with using the ghosting technique for scrutinizing whether any two CM3's have a 4:5 ratio of beating or not, is that the two intervals cannot be played side by side quickly enough. In the video that Jeff posted, I could hear some ghosted beats in some of the lower intervals played but they were too faint in the higher ones to be heard.

Let me say again that the value of beginning a temperament sequence for ET with a set of four (not just three) CM3's from F3-A4 is that it will naturally provide a very reliable and equal division of the F3-F4 temperament octave. One may have three CM3's that seem to progress, yes but the fourth M3 (F4-A4) is necessary to prove that the three lower CM3's have the right amount of progression.

In order to scrutinize and adjust these beat rates to the fine degree necessary, one has to be able to play any two pairs in legato fashion (smoothly and connected), not staccato (separated). That cannot really be done using the ghosting technique. Sure, the temperament sequence could be completed and instead of playing the intervals normally, they could all be ghosted and Kees' beat rate analyzer could register them but as a method of achieving a perfected ET, I don't see how ghosted CM3's would ever be useful.

The ghosting technique is useful for training a person who cannot yet perceive beats to be able to focus upon them. It can also be useful at anytime one may have a problem perceiving beats. Sometimes a beat may be faint because the 5th partial of the lower note or the 4th partial of the upper note is actually faint.

I sometimes run into that problem when trying to create a calculated program with my Sanderson Accu-Tuner. It initially asks for the difference between the 4th and 8th partial of F3. Sometimes that 8th partial is so weak that the device cannot pick it up. One has to pluck the string to get it to sound.

Some of that problem has been evidenced in some of Kees' lists such as when he puts in parentheses the word, "faint". The beat may be difficult to perceive because of the way the hammer excites the string. Either the 5th partial of the lower note or the 4th partial of the upper note of a particular M3 may not be very prominent, so the beat is faint.

The 4:5 ratio of CM3's is a small difference. What one is looking for is that no two CM3's would beat equally (which would be a small error of about 1 cent), certainly that the lower of two CM3's does not beat faster than the upper (which would be a larger error of 2 cents or greater) or that there is obviously too much difference between the lower and upper to be the small difference of 4:5.

That will always be a judgment call and no initial set of 4 CM3's can ever be finitely perfect. All that can be done is to ascertain that there are two octaves, F3-F4 and A3-A4 that are proven with octave tests to be of the same type or size (still a judgment call) and that the four CM3's apparently progress with that small difference between each two pairs. If that arrangement can be deemed to be satisfactory, however, the amount of error anywhere in that arrangement cannot be very large.

Starting with such a framework of CM3's amounts to doing the most difficult part of the job first which is often a good strategy for accomplishing a long and difficult task. The way I look at the problem of ET construction is that sure, it is easy to start with some 4ths & 5ths but if they have not been tempered properly, a dilemma results that will be far more difficult to resolve than it is to eliminate the possibility of creating that dilemma in the first place.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
#2208666 - 01/05/14 03:05 PM Re: CM3 Record-a-thon [Re: UnrightTooner]  
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They're not talking about a 4:5 ratio, they are talking about the 4:5 coincidental partial of a M3.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2208671 - 01/05/14 03:13 PM Re: CM3 Record-a-thon [Re: UnrightTooner]  
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The advantage to hitting the coincident note of a beating interval to excite the beats that occur IN the interval is-removal of most of the other sound so that the beating at that partial is more prominently heard. Excellent learning tool to compare beats.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
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#2208814 - 01/05/14 05:53 PM Re: CM3 Record-a-thon [Re: UnrightTooner]  
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Ooftah!

I am pretty suer what Kees will do with the analysis. I expect he will see how the betratio changes and give the intervals, and then the notes, an error value in cents. When there are at least 3 samples, some conclusions can be drawn as to how accurately they are tuned.

Now you fine folks could ramble on about CM3s or you could tune some samples and post links to them. That is what is being asked for here.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#2208853 - 01/05/14 06:47 PM Re: CM3 Record-a-thon [Re: UnrightTooner]  
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
I am pretty suer what Kees will do with the analysis. I expect he will see how the betratio changes and give the intervals, and then the notes, an error value in cents

I'm not sure. I just had lunch with Kees and he had no such plans. He seemed to be in a good mood though, so he'd probably do it if somebody asked for that. smile

Kees

#2208950 - 01/05/14 09:32 PM Re: CM3 Record-a-thon [Re: DoelKees]  
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Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
I am pretty suer what Kees will do with the analysis. I expect he will see how the betratio changes and give the intervals, and then the notes, an error value in cents

I'm not sure. I just had lunch with Kees and he had no such plans. He seemed to be in a good mood though, so he'd probably do it if somebody asked for that. smile

Kees


My apologies, Keeyes. From some things you mentioned in various posts, I thought this was something you were interested in. Hopefully it was something closely related, and I am not becoming befuddled.

Anyhoo, just my own example wouldn't mean much. Perhaps you just wanted to compare ghosted and played M3s. Well, you got 20 different ones of those!

But just a ballpark figure, within how many cents of ideal are you able to get your CM3s? And by that I have to say an average ratio, like 1.23, realizing the true ideal would have to be a diminishing ratio like 1.25, 1.23, 1.20 etc, depending on the piano and stretch.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#2208991 - 01/05/14 11:17 PM Re: CM3 Record-a-thon [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
They're not talking about a 4:5 ratio, they are talking about the 4:5 coincidental partial of a M3.


An M3 has coincident partials at 5:4, not 4:5. CM3's have a 4:5 ratio of beating and that is what I was talking about. You can't compare that fine of a difference and adjust it using the ghosting technique. I would not even attempt it.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
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#2208999 - 01/05/14 11:33 PM Re: CM3 Record-a-thon [Re: UnrightTooner]  
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
I am pretty suer what Kees will do with the analysis. I expect he will see how the betratio changes and give the intervals, and then the notes, an error value in cents

I'm not sure. I just had lunch with Kees and he had no such plans. He seemed to be in a good mood though, so he'd probably do it if somebody asked for that. smile

Kees


My apologies, Keeyes. From some things you mentioned in various posts, I thought this was something you were interested in. Hopefully it was something closely related, and I am not becoming befuddled.

Anyhoo, just my own example wouldn't mean much. Perhaps you just wanted to compare ghosted and played M3s. Well, you got 20 different ones of those!

But just a ballpark figure, within how many cents of ideal are you able to get your CM3s? And by that I have to say an average ratio, like 1.23, realizing the true ideal would have to be a diminishing ratio like 1.25, 1.23, 1.20 etc, depending on the piano and stretch.

OK, now I'm interested. I'm not sure actually how to translate the measured beatrates into cent error per note. Error relative to what? At this level of precision IH is important and I don't have the data to compute some kind of optimal temperament to compare to.

When I set aural 4 CM#'s I make errors of up to 2 cents as compared to ETD. Or used to, I haven't actually tried in quite a while. But I'm not a skilled ET tuner by any stretch of the imagination.

Kees

#2209038 - 01/06/14 12:18 AM Re: CM3 Record-a-thon [Re: UnrightTooner]  
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Jeff, could I encourage you to try the Beat Rate Analyser I posted in another thread on your ghosting? I tried it and found that many ghosts appeared very clearly in the waveform, although you may have to crank up the vertical amplitude a bit. Other times they were too feint to recognise. Sometimes I could not hear them well but they show up clearly in the software, and visa versa.

For the D#G sequence for example I got 6.5/9.3/9.8/11.8 for the ghosts. It was necessary to pick the cleanest looking wavelets, and you could pick from a few wavlets and take an average perhaps. I know it is not very sophisticated, and you have to start and stop both the audio and the software together which is tricky, but not too bad.

Last edited by Chris Leslie; 01/06/14 02:31 AM.

Chris Leslie ARPT
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#2209202 - 01/06/14 09:47 AM Re: CM3 Record-a-thon [Re: DoelKees]  
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Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
I am pretty suer what Kees will do with the analysis. I expect he will see how the betratio changes and give the intervals, and then the notes, an error value in cents

I'm not sure. I just had lunch with Kees and he had no such plans. He seemed to be in a good mood though, so he'd probably do it if somebody asked for that. smile

Kees


My apologies, Keeyes. From some things you mentioned in various posts, I thought this was something you were interested in. Hopefully it was something closely related, and I am not becoming befuddled.

Anyhoo, just my own example wouldn't mean much. Perhaps you just wanted to compare ghosted and played M3s. Well, you got 20 different ones of those!

But just a ballpark figure, within how many cents of ideal are you able to get your CM3s? And by that I have to say an average ratio, like 1.23, realizing the true ideal would have to be a diminishing ratio like 1.25, 1.23, 1.20 etc, depending on the piano and stretch.

OK, now I'm interested. I'm not sure actually how to translate the measured beatrates into cent error per note. Error relative to what? At this level of precision IH is important and I don't have the data to compute some kind of optimal temperament to compare to.

When I set aural 4 CM#'s I make errors of up to 2 cents as compared to ETD. Or used to, I haven't actually tried in quite a while. But I'm not a skilled ET tuner by any stretch of the imagination.

Kees


Well, instinctively I know there is a way but hadn't bothered to really think about it. Any beatrate curve or beatrate ratio curve will approximate a logarithmic series. Of course you need a pair of values in order to do so. A ladder of CM3s that spans an M3 has four points, and gives 6 different sets of pairs. So when any pair is used as a reference, the other two points can be given an error value, first as a ratio, then as cents.

The "short form" would be to just take the two end points and see how the others lie wink , but there would be other ways, too, like an average of all the pairs.

When I get a chance I will take Chris' values (Thanks, Chris!), as horrible as they are, and see what I can come up with. It might be a good test because of how bad the progression is, but I find a bit of encouragement in that I heard a 1/2bps difference as progressive...

"For the D#G sequence for example I got 6.5/9.3/9.8/11.8"


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#2209438 - 01/06/14 03:23 PM Re: CM3 Record-a-thon [Re: UnrightTooner]  
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Hi Jeff, the reason for my contribution to this post was for you to consider undertaking your own beat rate determinations as an alternative to relying on the figures of others. Besides, seeing the ghost's wavelets waving looks really cool smile

Last edited by Chris Leslie; 01/07/14 06:05 AM.

Chris Leslie ARPT
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#2209850 - 01/06/14 11:14 PM Re: CM3 Record-a-thon [Re: UnrightTooner]  
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OK, here's what you're after I think.

To quantify your "errors" I need to be able to come up with a theoretically perfect tuning to compare to, which is unknown as I don't know all the partial of the strings. An a reasonable approximation I use a 3 parameter theoretical model for the beatrates, and make a minimal least squares error fit to your measured beats.

The beat model is bps(x) = a*(b*x+c)^x with a,b, c the 3 parameters that I fit to your data and x the note number of the bottom (or top) note. "a" accounts for an overall offset of pitch. If there was no inharmonicity we'd have b=0 and c = 2^1/12. With constant IH we'd have something like b=0 and c= 2.01^1/12. Finally with b also nonzero we allow the stretch to vary linearly over the interval range.

So below I show your bps versus "ET" which is the best fitting 3 parameter model, and the cent difference between your intervals and the theoretical ones in cents. That's the amount you have to move one note to get it "right".

[Linked Image]

Kees

#2210021 - 01/07/14 08:39 AM Re: CM3 Record-a-thon [Re: UnrightTooner]  
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Thanks, Kees!

First I have to say, "See, I told everyone that CM3s produce RW but nobody will believe me. Just look at CE! It is a dead giveaway. Just imagine how horrible Bach's Prelude in C would sound! And they said I was insane. bwahahahah..." laugh laugh laugh

Ok, now that I got that out of the way. Of course someone that uses CM3s regularly would do much better. And there is still the question of whether M3s should be progressive across some breaks. Not to mention that the use of CM3s is not limited to starting a sequence. Hopefully some others will post the same sort of clips and we can get an idea of how accurately they are usually tuned.

As far as the math, I messed around with it a bit, had a different approach, but didn't get it to work. I'll take a closer look at what you are doing. It really is a separate subject.

This does bear out that CM3s can sound progressive and still have notes that are over a cent off.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#2210022 - 01/07/14 08:41 AM Re: CM3 Record-a-thon [Re: Chris Leslie]  
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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Hi Jeff, the reason for my contribution to this post was for you to consider undertaking your own beat rate determinations as an alternative to relying on the figures of others. Besides, seeing the ghost's wavelets waving looks really cool smile


Yes, thanks. See the one computer I use probably isn't up to the challenge. The other, would be downloading something I shouldn't.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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