Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Studying Chopin’s Ballade 1

Palmpirate, good luck with the 27/2 Nocturne! I agree about playing for passion and because we love the notes. Even if it takes awhile, it is worth it to keep on practicing these pieces.

Sam Rose, I’ll have a look at the scherzando for the places that are hard to impossible to play without a leap. Maybe we can practice some of those sections together and talk about pedalling in this thread.

Richard, I’ve only given a preliminary look at M48-55 but it does seem like a good place to focus. Maybe we could start a discussion about the details and the challenges of this section and then what comes before it as well. I think I’ll have some trouble memorizing the bars prior to that (34-43).

For how I take up a piece, usually to start I like to survey the piece to get a sense of all the parts of it. I listen to others playing it, and try to divide the piece up into sections for learning. Most recently, I’ve started tackling some of the most difficult sections first, sometimes along with an easier section of the piece. The parts that will need memorizing to play I will also start working on as soon as possible.

Two Snowflakes and jazzyprof, thanks for your thoughts and encouragement! TwoSnowflakes, you are probably right that this is a window in my piano journey where I am inspired to try such pieces. I’d better move quickly before it closes!

I agree that playing the notes is only a small part of a piece. For example, I felt completely unskilled and inexperienced when I took on the Chopin Mazurka 17/4 for the recital. Such a seemingly simple piece (perhaps one of the ‘easier’ mazurkas?) yet so difficult for me to play musically. I worked very hard just to get individual measures or half measures sounding musical. At many points during my months of practice I thought I should drop out of the recital because I wasn’t able to play the piece well enough. I don’t think I really succeeded in playing it by the standards of many. It could be said by a listener that I was only “pushing buttons with a little bit of expression” (though I didn’t purposely try to play it that way, I tried to do much more with it than that). My performance was also totally not in the galaxy compared to how it can be played by Horowitz or Rubinstein. But does that mean I shouldn’t have tried to play the Mazurka? My experience with it tells me no. I don’t regret studying it. Also, I got some very encouraging feedback from the listeners of the recital that surprised me. Perhaps then a performance doesn’t have to be of the highest calibre, or even that good for it to be enjoyable to others or for it to be worth studying for the pianist? I know people will differ in their thoughts about this, and that not everyone can enjoy (performing or listening to) a very non-perfect performance.

Also, maybe some people are ok with a very non-perfect, less experienced performance of a mazurka, but not the Ballade?

I would really like to be able to play this piece for my mum. Her father was a pianist, and died in the 1930s when my mum was 8 yrs old. Some of her only memories of her father are of him playing the piano late into the night while everyone else in the family was in bed. When I let her listen to Valentina Lisitsa playing winter wind or ocean etude, she says that sounds like the kind of music her father used to play. I like to think my grandfather might have played the Ballade, and so I’d like to be able to play it for my mum. I don’t know why I am stuck on this piece in that regard.

I’m also looking forward to studying this piece with others on this forum. This kind of collaborative study is another thing that makes taking up this piece at this time very worthwhile for me.

Those are some of my thoughts. I’m very sure I will get frustrated like Sam Rose, since that happens to me with many less complex pieces that I’m working on. I bet there may even come a point where I feel like giving up. But rather than turn away from the piece, I would like to learn to work through those instances and keep going. Yikes…..we’ll see if I can do that with this piece!

M34-35 closes off the main theme.

M36-39(40) is a four bar sequence repeated in M40-43(44) with slight variation.

M44-45 is repeated in M46-47.

M48-52 is a three group descending sequence followed by a rising group all repeated four times. I think it might be better to practise this section in groups of six notes rather than three at a cost of some speed loss. Maybe groups of three for HS.

M52-55 is a slight change and again a simple pattern to finish.

I wouldn't have thought any of this was difficult to remember. The problem I had was getting any tempo into M48-52 without affecting the accuracy of the octave drop and the turn for the repeat, the groups of three in the RH against eighths in LH and that blasted four note chord all under the piu mosso marking.

Thanks Richard, now that you've outlined the section it doesn't look as difficult. It is quite repetitive. I also found this short page about the above portion, which I plan to look over with the score in hand:

http://www.notefornotes.com/notes/f...lenges+in+1st+ballade+frederic+chopin/19

@FarmGirl Thanks for your well-wishes!

@Sam Why have you gone through so many pianos? You say on your YouTube page you can't afford lessons - have you spent all your money on transporting and tuning pianos?

Regarding your frustrations - I don't quite know what you were expecting. No adult beginner is ever going to have the technique of the top virtuosi, who all started when they were 5 or 6 and have never done anything else, and certainly not after 2 or 3 years of playing. I think you need to break your fixation on this piece, get a teacher, and study a whole load of other pieces (maybe some of Chopin's etudes?). Studying one piece for too long is going to be a case of diminishing returns in how much you improve your skills. And I presume you want to become a good pianist, not just someone who can play one piece?

@Snowflakes It sounds like we have differing objectives on what we want to get out of playing the piano. You aim to play pieces with perfect musicality, and regard the learning as a necessary struggle. Whereas I'm in it for the struggle! If I wanted to climb a mountain it would be because I like the forest. I might never get to the top but it's the journey that's important to me. So I might get stuck in the foothills of the Ballade, but I'll have fun doing it. After all, no-one else really cares whether I get to the top or not; it's a mountain that's been climbed many times before, and even if I do succeed, there are always going to be better versions to which people will prefer to listen.

@Neuralfirings Just wondering what kind of digital piano the recording on your blog is from?

@All - anyone got any suggesstions on which edition of the score is best? I looked at some on IMSLP and intially printed the Klindworth one, which seems OK. Quite condensed at 10 pages. The Mikuli one looks good too - more spread out over 14 pages. None of them seem to have measure numbers in them so I guess we have to count them ourselves...

Well, that's my point--the mazurka is something that is achievable by an intermediate pianist and used to get better. The Ballade is just so unbelievably hard that you are going to struggle to do anything but just push the buttons. The Mazurka may not sound professional, but the whole point is that you play more and more and it gets better and better. The piece can be assimilated somewhat quickly and then you work on expression, phrasing, touch and technique. Your best will not be professional, but over time, because you are learning as you go, it will get where you want it to be.

Do not get me wrong--I want to play the Ballade. I really feel like I will get to a point to play it FASTER using repertoire more within my reach to study and learn the right touch and technique on.

My Mazurkas do not sound like Rubinstein or Horowitz either!

But one day I hope they do!

On the contrary. I love a struggle. I would not be studying the piano if I did not. But even if I never want the amount of struggle I feel to get better, I want my skills to be rising, too.

In other words, I want to continue to struggle at the maximum amount I can struggle and still find satisfaction in it, but have my underlying skill level be improving little by little as well.

Otherwise it's not so much a struggle as a wheel-spinning endeavor. Or, worse, a "banging one's head against the wall" type of thing.

So do not misinterpret me. I am absolutely welcoming the struggle--the satisfaction of the journey itself, but reason I feel that way is that over time, I am actually going somewhere on my journey, like all journeys do.

I have no fixed idea of how much progress I want to see to keep the struggle purposeful to me, but I can tell you that NO progress would not be worth the struggle.

If I were aiming for perfection or were simply fixated on the end of the journey, I would not be playing, either. I can guarantee you there are already recordings of every piece I like played better than I will ever reasonably play it. If the end result and perfection were the only reason to play, I'd stop now.

I'd like to chime in with TwoSnowflakes here, both applauding people who have taken on a challenge on purpose, and advertising the value of playing pieces that one can play well. There is so much gorgeous music at the early advanced level, and it's music that you could easily hear in a concert.

To be honest I've developed an aversion to hearing or playing most of the big loud Rachmaninoff and Liszt pieces due to hearing too many people crash through them badly, but thinking they sound awesome because the pieces are fast and loud and have a lot of notes.

Here are some early advanced pieces that I've heard concert performers play recently (of course, those performances were quite remarkable)
Beethoven, Bagatelles Op. 33 and 126
Haydn, sonatas
Ravel, Menuet from Sonatine
Handel, Suite in F

That's first-rate music! So rewarding to play really well, accessible to early advanced students, and with lots under the surface to explore again and again as we improve.

When I started playing piano two years and one month ago there were two pieces that I just HAD TO PLAY. Since I was a beginner, they obviously were way beyond my nascent technical ability. And yet, here I am now, two years later, and I can play them both, plus a few other pieces. They were the springboard to my learning.

This Chopin Ballade is truly worthy of your time. Even if you never play it to your own satisfaction, there will be many rewards.

I am reminded of something someone wrote here in PianoWorld. Learning piano "Is a journey, not a destination." That frame of mind might help.

If I were approaching the Ballade, I definitely would be looking at it from a Hands Separate perspective. Isn't anybody using that approach?

I just wanted to say I am with you. I also wanted to clarify my position.
While I would admire people who would embark on a huge journey such as this, that's not something I would do. I would like to enjoy the journey. Some struggles are always expected but I would not like to kill myself over it. I would not last more than 3 months if i have to practice 3 hours everyday for the same piece. I would go insane.

I won't attempt the piece until I am ready, meaning that I (and my teacher) feel comfortable that I can bring it to performance level in 1 year or so. I know I am not ready now. Technically, I am barely playing 3 against 4! Musically, I am not there either (how am i gonna put together those pages of different musical ideas, poly melodies etc into a coherent musical story that makes sense… it hurts my brain). Besides, there are many other pieces I would like to learn. Ravel's Sonatine is one of them, Mozart's Fantasy.. and my dream piece Schubert Wanderer (someday!).

BTW, I think this whole thing is because it is Chopin. His music seems to stir strong feelings. Many of my friends, advanced or early students, yearn to play Chopin pieces. Especially the g minor Ballade! It's beautiful, how can I blame them wanting to do it. On the other hand, i have never heard people say that I GOTTA play this Mozart's piece before I die! It's unrelated but I became fond of Mozart music after I got older - did not think much of it when I was younger.

It's very typical to begin by loving all things Liszt, Chopin, and Rachmaninoff, and later mature into appreciating the greater masters Mozart, Bach, and Beethoven, which one previously thought to be boring and dull, and not worth listening to.

Hmm, lots to read and think about here...

For the score, lolatu, I recommend the Mikuli or Chopin Institute for layout. I prefer the Mikuli for fingering as it mostly concurs with mine but I always develop my own first and compare it later.

With major pieces or those I'm planning on performing for recitals I scan my own library (all the major works of all the major piano composers and some) plus IMSLP and use MS Paint to lay out the score on as many separate pages as I break the piece into and often one phrase per line, get rid of all fingerings, expand measures that are too cramped for easy reading, eliminate duplicate passages etc. It suits my way of working; one or two short passages, no more than twenty mins/day and mostly less, until all the phrases in a section are memorised individually.

I don't think I'll get the Ballade to a point where I'm happy to perform it. I will get most of it to a point where I'm blissful playing it. I play three Beethoven sonatas complete, none of them to tempo throughout, but I enjoy listening to professional recordings so much more as I can appreciate nuances from learning the music slowly that I would never have picked up from listening alone, even following the score closely. It's to increase my listening pleasure that I'm tackling this Ballade. And yes, FarmGirl, this Ballade is stirring stuff and quite unique in the literature. Next stop, Liszt's Benediction de Dieu. (I already play several passages from the B minor Sonata with no hope of finishing.)

My teacher assigned me this piece in the eighties but I stopped lessons shortly afterwards for logistical reasons and have done little with it since. Valencia has lit the fire for it in recent months and I'm relishing the opportunity to tackle it now without a teacher but with collaborative effort. I won't be able to start practising until April due to other commitments but until then I can still get involved with analysis, planning and problem solving.

Missed this earlier - I use HS regularly. Because I memorise all my pieces I start by memorising the difficult passages first so that I can practise them away from the piano.

I used to learn Bach by learning each hand separately all the way through first though no longer do. But I still learn each phrase of each piece HS and HT. I memorise from the score and practise only from memory. Memorising is easier working HS as is working out phrasing and often fingering. Even when I've put hands together I still use HS for working on speed and other technical issues. Playing one hand alone is also a strong test of memory in long known pieces that might otherwise give way to finger memory.

I find it far quicker to learn and memorise one hand at a time and have all the technical issues solved before putting hands together but I still have hands together from day one. Just more HS than HT in the early stages and more HT than HS in the later stages.

All tempo increases come from HS work.

Every piece in my repertoire, some of which I've been playing for over thirty years, I still practise HS for speed, clarity and accuracy.

I liked Horowitz from the first note I ever heard him play.

But I fell in LOVE with Horowitz when he opened his 1984 Moscow recital with...Scarlatti. Just a wonderful delicate sonata. For all his ability to crash through a Rach prelude and of course it's incredibly exciting when those octaves come off like lightning bolts in his Chopin, seeing how beautiful and pristine he can play something like Scarlatti is its own marvel.

If I had to point to a particular moment that piano installed itself permanently in my heart, that would not be a bad candidate.

At any rate, I actually have great fear of Scarlatti, Haydn, Bach, and of course Mozart more than I do of Chopin and Rachmaninoff. That wide open sound and perfect structure is so maddeningly difficult to play well.

My teacher, who often believes me ready for pieces I do not think I am ready for, recently assigned me that old standby Clementi Sonata in c major simply as a tool to work on how to make the sound good, because hitting the right notes was not an issue, certainly. It was hard. She wouldn't even let the tempo come up past half speed for several weeks.

When we went back to the Rachmaninoff she said, "welcome back to your pedal and all those notes to hide behind!"

She wants me to play in her recital next month and while it'll be seven kids and me, I'm way more inclined to "hide" in the Rachmaninoff than the Clementi. Even if the Clementi is far more standard fare in the kiddie living-room style recital.

Problem is, at a certain point Rachmaninoff and Chopin get unbelievably difficult, too. Here are two composers who wrote for the modern piano in all its resonant glory. They wrote in a way capture all its modern possibilities, and all the amazing tones from the get-go.

So for me, my recital candidates are well between Bach's Goldberg variations and Chopin's ballade!

And one day I will be good enough to branch out to both! And then bring on Gaspard de la Nuit! Hammerklavier! Transcendental Etudes!

Just give me a good ten years! And in ten years these pieces will still be there... That's the beauty of it all.

And also told my husband that when this happens, when I'm good enough to study these pieces in earnest, I'm getting that Grotrian, so make some room for it!

[And also told my husband that when this happens, when I'm good enough to study these pieces in earnest, I'm getting that Grotrian, so make some room for it! [/quote]

What a nice husband!

Wow. Thanks for that clarification. I learned my Joplin piece HS and after about 1 month I had the piece memorized, and only then began to slowly put them together. I still use HS but the percentage of time spent on HT is increasing steadily.



An interesting comment because I had the opposite reaction with regard to Horowitz but was quite swept away by Arthur Rubinstein from the beginning. It has to do with the phrasing, I think. I think if I gave Horowitz a fair shake and listened to, say, 10 of his works together, I'd probably change my mind. But I find Rubinstein's pieces to be pretty universally compelling.

Ha, it's funny you mention that because at this particular time in my life, I'm also more of a Rubinstein fan than Horowitz. I know if I want to hear a certain piece and both Rubinstein and Horowitz have recorded it, if I have to choose between those two, I gravitate towards the Rubinstein right now.

But there is no doubt that my formative piano sound was Horowitz. My mother loved him and I, consequently, was always exposed to him.

The result is that I will always love Horowitz, even if I objectively prefer recordings by others of things he plays.

But there are several (but not many) pieces where I simply can't hear it any other way.

The Scarlatti is one of them. And yes, I'm quite aware there are artists more generally known to be experts in Scarlatti era works than Horowitz.

LOL! He is. But not because of that. The job of tolerating with a smile all my practicing in the meantime is a lot more laudable of thing to do than simply agreeing to let me purchase a high end piano when the time comes!

Sam, I applaud you here. You played this in front on me awhile back and I could hear this exactly. BUT you must be headed for some real progress because now YOU can hear it.

As I've always said, you have to improve your hearing to be able to improve your playing. The frustration of finding something to fix is a never ending goal. But each time you tackle it, you make a solid improvement.

Unfortunately, everything takes time. It's easier to make improvements in early stages because some natural instincts allow you to skip issues others encounter.

But you are headed for some amazing levels here. Anyone that can acknowledge and hear their deficiencies are bound to improve big time. Anyone that thinks they sound good will likely not improve.

So the frustration is expected and common. I experience it everyday and I spent each practice session looking for faults.

I know what you mean about the formative piano sound and its influence. It's always with you. My mother played piano nicely and I grew up listening to her at night when I went to bed. I cherish those memories now.

A Grotrian - wow - would be stellar.

Useful tips Richard. Never thought of using MS Paint. Agree that Mikuli score seems best of the bunch, so I'm using that from now on.

Did a sight-reading playthrough last night. Definitely going to be challenging, but didn't make me want to slit my wrists like when I tried La Campanella or Hungarian Rhapsody No 2!