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#2207350 - 01/03/14 09:27 AM Hammer Voicing by David Stanwood  
Joined: Nov 2013
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Paul678 Offline
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Paul678  Offline
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#2207381 - 01/03/14 11:28 AM Re: Hammer Voicing by David Stanwood [Re: Paul678]  
Joined: Dec 2012
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Ed McMorrow, RPT  Offline
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Seattle, WA USA
Nothing new shown in video. Title is misleading because Davis Stanwood is not doing the voicing.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
#2207453 - 01/03/14 01:17 PM Re: Hammer Voicing by David Stanwood [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]  
Joined: Nov 2013
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Paul678 Offline
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Paul678  Offline
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Nothing new shown in video. Title is misleading because Davis Stanwood is not doing the voicing.


Do you agree with the technique in general?

#2207509 - 01/03/14 02:23 PM Re: Hammer Voicing by David Stanwood [Re: Paul678]  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 230
Jim Dunleavy Offline
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Jim Dunleavy  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 230
The Original Washington (UK)
I'm no expert (understatement) but he seems to be going in pretty deep at the crown, which I thought was a no-no.

It may be a heavy-use piano, in which case it's a different ball game.

EDIT: now that I watch again, he's using a special type of needle, which won't penetrate all that far.

Last edited by Jim Dunleavy; 01/03/14 02:25 PM.

Jim (amateur musician and composer..and piano tinkerer).

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#2208569 - 01/05/14 10:24 AM Re: Hammer Voicing by David Stanwood [Re: Jim Dunleavy]  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9
David C. Stanwood Offline
Junior Member
David C. Stanwood  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9
Martha's Vineyard, Massachuset...
Hi all and Happy New Year,

John Foy is the one doing the voicing on a Steinway D in North Carolina. It's not a teaching video. Just something I sent to a friend. Now that I see it's being picked up by others I'll add more info.

The technique utilizes a single wide angle needle on the crown might and might be best described as "Deep Sugaring". Sugar needling is usually done with multiple thin needles over the crown of the hammer at a shallow depth and is often used just before a concert to sweeten the tone. It does not last long. Deep Sugaring is a more vigorous technique and lasts a long time. Using a wide angle sharp needle point prevents the needle from going in deeply and killing the tone. The wide needle angle assures that the felt fibers at the surface are stretched apart vigorously making the felt quite a bit softer. The depth of the effect is easily controlled by the force of the blow with the voicing needle. The inclusive angle of the needle is 13 degrees and is a chart compass needle. 78 RPM needles also work. The method expands the pianissimo range without killing the fortissimo. It also creates purer unisons by cushioning the initial impact of the string against the hammer felt.

The method can work miracles on modern hammers that are pressed with a lot of heat. The heat irons the surface of the felt and makes it hard. This destroys pianissimo tone. My favorite quote for what we try to achieve in hammer felt is by Alfred Dolge in his book "Pianos and their Makers". Alfred Dolge is the Father of the Modern Piano Hammer (Post 1875)

“The art in hammer making has ever been to obtain a solid, firm foundation, graduating in softness and elasticity toward the top surface, which latter has to be silky and elastic in order to produce a mild, soft tone for pianissimo playing, but with sufficient resistance back of it to permit the hard blow of fortissimo playing.”

The Ball Peen hammer method might be described as a "Hammer Limbering" and the tool itself as a "Limbering Hammer". It is an adjunct to Deep Sugaring method, or as a stand alone method.

Merriam-Webster: Limber is an adjective which means - "Having a supple and resilient quality" It's also a verb which is to make something more limber.

The heat ironing that is on modern hammers (Post WWII) also reduces the resiliency and springiness of the wool felt fibers which is an essential quality for producing beautiful tone. The ball peening works to vigorously move the fibers to make them more limber. It simulates "Playing In" the voicing. Yamaha teaches a similar technique when needling which is to let the heel of the voicing tool hit hard against the surface of the hammer. This has the effect of opening the tone. One can see the effect by taking a strip of felt which is supple and flexible and ironing it to make it stiff and more dense. Working the felt by vigorously by hand, bending and flexing strip will restore the suppleness by restoring the limber of the fibers.

I first came upon the technique when I tried to kill the awful tone of a little short keyboard Caberet piano I had in a little room. The tone was loud with little mellow quality. I took the action out and laid it on the floor with a stick of wood under the hammer tails. I assailed the strike area of the hammers with the compass needle. This made a lot of holes in the hot pressed Hammers. Hitting the hammers with a very large and heavy pall peen hammer made the felt expand into the holes and the hammers actually looked like nothing had been done with them. The effect on the tone was astonishing and I do not use this adjective lightly. The tone now had the warm mellow sound of a a cold pressed hammer. When you laid into the keys the Forte tone came through with a pleasing power behind it. I did this about 5 years ago and the voicing is still beautiful.

The next time I used the technique was on a 9' c1903 Grotrian Steinweg in Alsace France. The piano had new hammers that were reproduced to be precisely shaped and constructed like the originals. Unfortunately the one difference was that heat was used in the pressing of the felt. The hammers in 1903 would have been cold pressed which maximizes resiliency of the felt. I tested with a couple of pokes of the compass needle on the crown of one hammer and I could tell that this was too much effect. So in this case I skipped needling and only used the Limbering Hammer. The effect was also astonishing and did not take much time to accomplish. The piano was transformed. Most recently I worked on a Pacific Rim grand with very harsh tone. This one took full needling and hammering and the effect was to make the tone lovely and warm. It took about 20 minutes.

Since then I have been teaching the technique in PTG conferences and it is clear that we have a new method to add to our tool kit. My friend and associate Boaz Kirschenbaum is marketing voicing tools for this method. Go to:

http://vintagetonetoolco.bigcartel.com/products

Hope this helps,

Sincerely.

David Stanwood







#2208649 - 01/05/14 01:37 PM Re: Hammer Voicing by David Stanwood [Re: Paul678]  
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 430
Tuneless Offline
Full Member
Tuneless  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 430
AZ, USA
I am thinking this is what I need to do to my 125 year old hammers that are age hardened with no more than an 1/8 inch wear over all these years. They are pretty hard, and I have worked over then with a small nylon hammer, but not exactly on the crown. They were removed from the upright at the flange joint, and held with felt in contact with the edge of a table, then the nylon hammer bounced off of them while the piano hammer was rolled forward and backward, to work every part of the felt except the crown. Maybe I should have included the crown.

I dislike the sharp attack I have heard on so many pianos, so this sounds like a low danger procedure for a voicing beginner, and probably appropriate to my hammers.


Cynthia

Roland FP-50
Conover Upright, 1888/9, but a very low mileage piano. http://www.pbase.com/schnitz/conover_upright_piano__1888_or_9 .
Tuneless = Don't play piano yet but getting there.
I'm technically very capable. I love my piano and love tinkering with it.
#2208684 - 01/05/14 02:25 PM Re: Hammer Voicing by David Stanwood [Re: Tuneless]  
Joined: May 2013
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SMHaley Offline
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SMHaley  Offline
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Seattle
Originally Posted by Tuneless
I am thinking this is what I need to do to my 125 year old hammers that are age hardened with no more than an 1/8 inch wear over all these years.

While not substantial grooving a light reshaping to present a clean point of departure may be ideal.


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#2208775 - 01/05/14 04:06 PM Re: Hammer Voicing by David Stanwood [Re: SMHaley]  
Joined: Jun 2013
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Tuneless Offline
Full Member
Tuneless  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 430
AZ, USA
Originally Posted by SMHaley
Originally Posted by Tuneless
I am thinking this is what I need to do to my 125 year old hammers that are age hardened with no more than an 1/8 inch wear over all these years.

While not substantial grooving a light reshaping to present a clean point of departure may be ideal.


Done.

While I don't want to redirect this thread, I should say that I am almost done with the work on my action and will up date by journal on my piano when I finish, but I have a few of the new dampers needing a little spring strengthening to get them to do a better job, but I am having too much fun learning to play piano, so I am a little slow at pulling the action again, to finish the job. But I may go find me a compass needle or phonograph needle to put in my pin vise to do the above voicing the next time I pull the action.


Cynthia

Roland FP-50
Conover Upright, 1888/9, but a very low mileage piano. http://www.pbase.com/schnitz/conover_upright_piano__1888_or_9 .
Tuneless = Don't play piano yet but getting there.
I'm technically very capable. I love my piano and love tinkering with it.
#2209919 - 01/07/14 12:04 AM Re: Hammer Voicing by David Stanwood [Re: David C. Stanwood]  
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 927
phacke Offline

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014
phacke  Offline

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 927
CO, USA
Originally Posted by David C. Stanwood

...Hope this helps,

David Stanwood


Very informative indeed, thank you very much for taking the time to write this out.

Best regards-


phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Toccata (G minor) BWV 915
(and trying not to forget the other stuff I know)
#2246190 - 03/13/14 08:08 PM Re: Hammer Voicing by David Stanwood [Re: Paul678]  
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 2
Mangosteen Offline
Junior Member
Mangosteen  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 2
Hi all, I have been reading this subject with great interest and would like to try out Mr. Stanwood's voicing method. I am planning to make my own voicing tools and was wondering if I should use the soft, medium or loud tone 78 RPM needle? I do piano voicing for a dealer and have encountered some really hard and bright hammers that could probably benefit from this method.

I would appreciate any advice.

Thanks.

#2246355 - 03/14/14 05:10 AM Re: Hammer Voicing by David Stanwood [Re: Paul678]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Hello, Hammers are always tapped after needling (each time) to "close the holes"

Too hard hammers I prefer to massage with pliers, it unlock the fiber nicely, and a lot of strength can be used.

Today hammers are less heated, but it happens some are hardened , as "locked" by the heat indeed.

Last edited by Olek; 03/14/14 05:11 AM.

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