Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum How do the pros tune the very lowest notes?

Your approach is reasonable and your observation that Inharmonicity is a factor is very correct! For the very lowest notes, one technique can be (after the whole rest of the piano has been tuned) is to hold the damper pedal wide open. Then flatten the string to be tuned until it is obviously too flat, while playing a single octave with the note to be tuned and the note an octave above it, then sharpen it just until it seems to ring true with all of the rest of the strings that are already tuned above it while playing that single octave.

This could end up with you tuning the low note a bit flatter than you really want but if so, return to it and sharpen it a bit until you hear a nice resonance.

The problem you have identified is that the upper harmonics (technicians call them "partials"), are very sharp to the fundamental tone (the pitch you think of the note as being). The higher the harmonic, the sharper it is!

This means that the final, pleasing "resonance" that you will hear is actually a conflict between the higher harmonics (partials) of the lower string compared to the higher string. There is no way to get all of the harmonics to match and get a completely "pure" sounding octave in the low Bass. The mis-match of higher harmonics need not sound bad or "out of tune", however.

What you will be listening for will be a compromise between a low "rumble" and a very faint, rapid beat that will be perceived more like a pleasing resonance than something that is out of tune.

Every pianist will have his or her own preference in that range. Basically, the flatter you tune those lowest strings, the more depth in tone you may experience. The flatter you tune them, the "larger" your piano will sound!

By contrast, the sharper you tune those lowest strings, the more beautiful "resonance" you may perceive. You have to be the final judge of what sounds right to your ear.

In the link below, I offer you an example of where I tuned a Mason & Hamlin 7 foot piano to have the maximum possible stretch in the lowest octaves. Some technicians immediately condemned it but others rather liked it. Listen and hear what you think:

https://app.box.com/s/4e01a29d1fcddd5e59ef

I am sure you will hear how it made the piano sound "larger" than it is but if that did not please you, you will want to make your lower octaves "tighter".

Good luck in your experimentation!

Don that is a usual first step (checking by octaves) and gets you in the ballpark. Depending on where the scale break in to the wound strings ends up, I also might reference 3rds,4ths, 5ths and 10ths. When those get to be a bit too active with extraneous harmonics I drop the closer intervals and also use a flat 14th to offset the IH and use it all the way down.

If your bass strings are still moving about are you happy with the tightness of the pins?

The bass is becpomine more and stable and I don't expect to touch it up again for some time. My tuner/tech friend told me -- in a very nice way -- that some of the stability of the new bass strings depended on how they were installed. It was my first time. I drove a few pins in a little and, if anything, I think they might be a little too tight. I checked with a torque wrench and I don't think there is a problem. (The Webber is the sad story -- put all new hammers and hammer butts on it and it doesn't hold a tune too well.)

You lost me with the flat 14th, etc!

Every pianist will have his or her own preference in that range. Basically, the flatter you tune those lowest strings, the more depth in tone you may experience. The flatter you tune them, the "larger" your piano will sound!

By contrast, the sharper you tune those lowest strings, the more beautiful "resonance" you may perceive. You have to be the final judge of what sounds right to your ear.

In the link below, I offer you an example of where I tuned a Mason & Hamlin 7 foot piano to have the maximum possible stretch in the lowest octaves. Some technicians immediately condemned it but others rather liked it. Listen and hear what you think:

https://app.box.com/s/4e01a29d1fcddd5e59ef

Your approach is reasonable and your observation that Inharmonicity is a factor is very correct! For the very lowest notes, one technique can be (after the whole rest of the piano has been tuned) is to hold the damper pedal wide open. Then flatten the string to be tuned until it is obviously too flat, while playing a single octave with the note to be tuned and the note an octave above it, then sharpen it just until it seems to ring true with all of the rest of the strings that are already tuned above it while playing that single octave.

This could end up with you tuning the low note a bit flatter than you really want but if so, return to it and sharpen it a bit until you hear a nice resonance.

The problem you have identified is that the upper harmonics (technicians call them "partials"), are very sharp to the fundamental tone (the pitch you think of the note as being). The higher the harmonic, the sharper it is!

This means that the final, pleasing "resonance" that you will hear is actually a conflict between the higher harmonics (partials) of the lower string compared to the higher string. There is no way to get all of the harmonics to match and get a completely "pure" sounding octave in the low Bass. The mis-match of higher harmonics need not sound bad or "out of tune", however.

What you will be listening for will be a compromise between a low "rumble" and a very faint, rapid beat that will be perceived more like a pleasing resonance than something that is out of tune.

Every pianist will have his or her own preference in that range. Basically, the flatter you tune those lowest strings, the more depth in tone you may experience. The flatter you tune them, the "larger" your piano will sound!

By contrast, the sharper you tune those lowest strings, the more beautiful "resonance" you may perceive. You have to be the final judge of what sounds right to your ear.

In the link below, I offer you an example of where I tuned a Mason & Hamlin 7 foot piano to have the maximum possible stretch in the lowest octaves. Some technicians immediately condemned it but others rather liked it. Listen and hear what you think:

https://app.box.com/s/4e01a29d1fcddd5e59ef

I am sure you will hear how it made the piano sound "larger" than it is but if that did not please you, you will want to make your lower octaves "tighter".

Good luck in your experimentation!

OT, but in general, I hear unexpected intervals, and most notably between 1:14-1:35.

Were these meant to be tuned that way?

That sounds good to me, Bill.

You wouldn't happen to have a recording of the lower
octaves "tighter", on the same piano? That would
be interesting to compare the recordings side by side.

This makes me excited to try 8:4 in the bass
in Tunelab on my next tuning, and perhaps 4:2
in the treble as well. Someone mentioned that
they reserve the higher bass stretch for pianos
6' or larger. So I would guess 8:4 in the bass
might be bad sounding in a spinet?

That's what I do, but since I tune RW, what the heck do I know?

(I slay myself...)

I never said you tuned RW. You are innocent of that until proven guilty with a video of how you tune a temperament. Do you dare?

An ETD will be of little use here.

Hakki,

If you are referring to the short clip I posted, it is because the piano in not in ET.

That is the very reason why, even though I now customarily use an ETD, I turn it off when I am tuning the Bass. It is of no use to me, either with a calculated program or by direct interval.