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I want to say that it was good to read the attributes of an excellent grand piano being described and highlighted. One of the things that has been missing in this discussion is details and actual information. The part I objected was the implication of ignorance or something like that - the fact is that many people don't have that kind of choice.
I want to say that it was good to read the attributes of an excellent grand piano being described and highlighted. One of the things that has been missing in this discussion is details and actual information. The part I objected was the implication of ignorance or something like that - the fact is that many people don't have that kind of choice.
Precisely. In most cases a concert grand is totally out of the question and many uprights are equally as poor by comparison as digitals, in fact most are worse.
People play digitals with the volume turned down, because they can and need to. They are then surprised when they come to the acoustic and do not have that luxury.
To compare like with like means setting a good high volume level on the digital, when not only will the difference between pp and ff become obvious, but you will also lose much of the advantage of owning the digital.
All rather self-defeating!
The truth is, IMO, that many digitals are superior to many uprights and quite a number of grands.
However, I accept that given limitless money, a mansion in the country and no other concerns, most would settle for a full concert grand piano over a digital, surprisingly.
Without all those facilities a good digital equals a better option, not a poor second choice.
People play digitals with the volume turned down, because they can and need to. They are then surprised when they come to the acoustic and do not have that luxury.
To compare like with like means setting a good high volume level on the digital, when not only will the difference between pp and ff become obvious, but you will also lose much of the advantage of owning the digital.
All rather self-defeating!
It needn't be.
You just use headphones, and keep the volume at a realistic level through the headphones. That's the way I've been playing my digital (which has no speakers) since I bought it three years ago. I've never played it with the volume set unnaturally low (in fact, the only time when I've altered its setting was when I changed headphones), and therefore, despite it being my only practice instrument - unlike some others here, I haven't got an acoustic to practise on at quiet times - I continue to learn new and harder repertoire on it. And then play my new pieces on an acoustic grand for a small audience once a month, with absolutely no difficulty in switching.
But the point is that I was brought up on acoustics, so I continued to play my digital like the real thing. Beginners - especially children - who start learning from scratch on digitals need to understand that if they want to develop a proper piano technique, they need to play their digitals like they are acoustics. Which means absolutely no twiddling of the volume control to suit themselves (i.e. their lack of control of dynamics) or their parents (who might prefer not to hear their offsprings' efforts at 'acoustic' volume, and encourage lowering of the volume setting instead of investing in good headphones - which is the sure way to encourage banging rather than playing).
People play digitals with the volume turned down, because they can and need to. They are then surprised when they come to the acoustic and do not have that luxury.
To compare like with like means setting a good high volume level on the digital, when not only will the difference between pp and ff become obvious, but you will also lose much of the advantage of owning the digital.
All rather self-defeating!
It needn't be.
You just use headphones, and keep the volume at a realistic level through the headphones. That's the way I've been playing my digital (which has no speakers) since I bought it three years ago. I've never played it with the volume set unnaturally low (in fact, the only time when I've altered its setting was when I changed headphones), and therefore, despite it being my only practice instrument - unlike some others here, I haven't got an acoustic to practise on at quiet times - I continue to learn new and harder repertoire on it. And then play my new pieces on an acoustic grand for a small audience once a month, with absolutely no difficulty in switching.
But the point is that I was brought up on acoustics, so I continued to play my digital like the real thing. Beginners - especially children - who start learning from scratch on digitals need to understand that if they want to develop a proper piano technique, they need to play their digitals like they are acoustics. Which means absolutely no twiddling of the volume control to suit themselves (i.e. their lack of control of dynamics) or their parents (who might prefer not to hear their offsprings' efforts at 'acoustic' volume, and encourage lowering of the volume setting instead of investing in good headphones - which is the sure way to encourage banging rather than playing).
I understand your point, I wasn't referring so much to the people who are experienced, like yourself and know this.
I must say though, that I really do feel headphones do not give the projection you get from room filling, (and next door's flat filling) speakers.
But I do know exactly what you mean. I bought a Roland RD 300 s stage piano as long ago as March 1990 and played it regularly until replacing it with a RD 700 NX in 2011, neither of which, as I'm sure you know, have in-built sound system. But when I bought my first Roland I already had 19 years experience on acoustics of varying quality. That simply isn't the case for many new to piano playing these days.
Many people buy a digital and turn the sound right down because it is convenient to do so, being considerate and thoughtful. This is compounded by the lack of experience with an acoustic, the fact there is no volume control is inhibiting to people unused to the effect of a full soundboard.
When they then go to a grand, or even un upright, often in an empty church hall, they are, not un-naturally a little intimidated by the sound as well as too little experienced to deal with the limitations that are found with digitals, and as they then find out, acoustics.
Interestingly though, the "problems" are always perceived as being with the digital piano, never with their lack of knowledge or ability, or the lack of versatility of an acoustic!
My first experience playing a grand was unpleasant to the ear at my first recital. My digital has removed a lot of my dynamics. I now play with the volume turned up. I'm looking for a good acoustic. I can only dream about a Grand and i do. The acoustic that i should get is out of my price range. I hope my teacher sticks with me long enough to here me out. I have a hard time adjusting from digital to an acoustic. I knew that a teacher is extremely important when you first start but now i see the piano is more important that i had first thought. I have heavy hands so it's harder for me more than most. I wish i read a thread like this when i first started. The wisdom here is of the charts.
My first experience playing a grand was unpleasant to the ear at my first recital. My digital has removed a lot of my dynamics. I now play with the volume turned up. I'm looking for a good acoustic.
At the risk of flogging a live horse , I've been banging on about this to anyone who would listen, over in the digital forum as well as ABF - that it's rarely the digital per se (unless it's a cheap and nasty one) that causes problems with learners not acquiring keyboard control of tonal and dynamic niceties, but the way they use them.
Even experienced pianists can get caught out. I'd never touched a digital (thinking that they were totally unsuitable for me as a classical pianist, brought up on acoustics) until I thought of buying one three years ago. That was when I'd got fed up with not having regular access to a piano. And the only way I could have one at home was to play it 'silently' - i.e. with headphones. And a digital was better than nothing - after all, they've been around for several decades.....
I spent a month doing the rounds of several DP stores, bringing my headphones with me, during which I didn't touch an acoustic. After I made my choice, and while waiting for its delivery (and relieved it was all over....), I paid a visit to one of my favorite showrooms to play on the Fazioli grand there - and was shocked at how loud it was. Yet I'd played on that Fazioli frequently in the past, so what's changed? My playing - I was now thumping hard in a way I never did before. Because I was using the volume settings on the digitals at unrealistically low levels.
When my DP arrived, the first thing I did was to set the volume control at the right level (equivalent to that of a small vertical). I've only altered the setting once - when I changed my headphones a year later for a better pair but which had higher impedance. And I've had absolutely no problems with going back and forth between my digital and acoustics (when I visit showrooms, and in the past year, once a month on an old C.Bechstein grand for the staff at a hospital). Anything that I learn from scratch on my digital (which has included Ravel's Gaspard and Chopin Etudes), I can transfer to acoustics with no problem - the minor difference in key action is as nothing compared to that between uprights and grands, and even between many grands of the same size. (For instance, Faziolis feel quite a bit lighter than Steinways).
I'm not a piano teacher, and have never taught anyone in my life. But now that I've visited many DP stores in addition to acoustic piano showrooms, I can see the differences in the way people play on those - and that's entirely down to the fact that players thump and bang on digitals because they can, because there's a volume control on them, which there isn't on acoustics.
In other words, I believe firmly that if you want your students using digitals to be able to play acoustics properly, they need to play them like acoustics.
When my DP arrived, the first thing I did was to set the volume control at the right level (equivalent to that of a small vertical).
I have read in many places this is the correct way to go - setting the volume and leaving it there. I've been wanting to do the same, just not sure where that right level is located.
When my DP arrived, the first thing I did was to set the volume control at the right level (equivalent to that of a small vertical).
I have read in many places this is the correct way to go - setting the volume and leaving it there. I've been wanting to do the same, just not sure where that right level is located.
My digital is older so this may not apply.
There is a fairly narrow range of the master volume where I can play both loud and soft and simulate an acoustic.
If I turn the volume down, nothing I do gets a forte out of it.
If I turn the volume up, it gets suddenly loud without my trying.
I found that spot and haven't touched it in years, except to reset it if one of the kids plays with it.
You want the loudest setting where you get decent dynamic range. If that's too loud for the neighbors use headphones.
When my DP arrived, the first thing I did was to set the volume control at the right level (equivalent to that of a small vertical).
I have read in many places this is the correct way to go - setting the volume and leaving it there. I've been wanting to do the same, just not sure where that right level is located.
My digital is older so this may not apply.
There is a fairly narrow range of the master volume where I can play both loud and soft and simulate an acoustic.
If I turn the volume down, nothing I do gets a forte out of it.
If I turn the volume up, it gets suddenly loud without my trying.
I found that spot and haven't touched it in years, except to reset it if one of the kids plays with it.
You want the loudest setting where you get decent dynamic range. If that's too loud for the neighbors use headphones.
It's important to get the digital piano/headphone combination right.
Some DPs - including, surprisingly, the Yamaha AvantGrands - have such low output via their headphone sockets that if your headphones have low sensitivity, even with the volume control set at maximum, you cannot get sufficient volume to approach that of the smallest acoustic. (I was amazed that the Yamaha headphones in the big Yamaha store that was provided for punters to use with their AGs was one such pair....). And some of the cheap digitals that have integral speakers cannot produce a realistic volume through them at all. Beware!
Unfortunately, the promotional blurb by manufacturers for their digitals often extol the fact that you can play them softly, so that you don't inadvertently frighten the horses. They forgot to mention that you won't be able to cope with playing on real pianos after that, so you might have to stick to playing digitals from then on......(or maybe, that's deliberate?)
When my DP arrived, the first thing I did was to set the volume control at the right level (equivalent to that of a small vertical).
I have read in many places this is the correct way to go - setting the volume and leaving it there. I've been wanting to do the same, just not sure where that right level is located.
I've read in a number of places that ordinary piano practice, not real loud or soft, is about 60-70 dB SPL. You might set it to that for moderate playing. You can get a cheap SPL meter from the usual online sources. Then you could even take it along when you play an acoustic and get a reading, and set your digital to give the same levels for the same kind of playing.
I've read in a number of places that ordinary piano practice, not real loud or soft, is about 60-70 dB SPL. You might set it to that for moderate playing. You can get a cheap SPL meter from the usual online sources. Then you could even take it along when you play an acoustic and get a reading, and set your digital to give the same levels for the same kind of playing.
The people in the digital forum can't even agree on what is a good digital piano for advanced classical training. Some insist its the much cheaper ($2000 US) controller + sampled software running on a computer. Others, the physical modeled Roland V-Piano ($7000 US)...etc etc
the really bizarre thing is that almost nobody posts a recording of their playing to back up their opinion. Its just a bunch of techno gibberish and/or touchy feely arguments with a few overlords pretending to know it all.
The people in the digital forum can't even agree on what is a good digital piano for advanced classical training. Some insist its the much cheaper ($2000 US) controller + sampled software running on a computer. Others, the physical modeled Roland V-Piano ($7000 US)...etc etc
the really bizarre thing is that almost nobody posts a recording of their playing to back up their opinion. Its just a bunch of techno gibberish and/or touchy feely arguments with a few overlords pretending to know it all.
And what's wrong with techno gibberish and/or touchy feely arguments???? Some of those folks may know more than you realize.
As for posting recordings - perhaps we shouldn't assume that in addition to knowing something about digitals, these individuals can actually play the piano.
I'm having serious problems going from my digital's to an acoustic at lessons. You can't even compare a dp to a grand. I have four digital s right now because i repair and then resell them. I only repair one's that have good action and play close to an acoustic. Most only sound good with head phones and recording to the computer. But they are nothing like a real piano. I'm playing too loud most of the time. The sound from pp to ff. Well there is no pp or ff on any of my dp unless you adjust the volume. Not saying there aren't some newer dp's that come close. If you take a keyboard apart and see the mechanics and how it translates to the logic. There is no way its even close. Most only have three to five levels of sound. The acoustic have what? 1000 and the mechanics to support it. To get to the next level i need an acoustic. I am hurting myself by just playing on Dp's. This is my experience only. We are all at different levels in playing and what we hear. So maybe a digital will work for you. I'm saving my money for something 45" or higher. My jaw dropped two weeks ago listening to a 40" Wurlitzer at a new piano store that just opened. Had a Sold sign on it for $1200. The open room helped. The sound was very warm. They hired a piano player. He also commented on the good sound as he played for customers in the store.
Absolutely. And to expand--There is no substitute for feeling the sea-saw that is at the heart of the grand piano. The most important element is being able to control the (horizontal) velocity of hitting the strings--"slowing into the keys" is demonstrated in this video (and BTW I do NOT advocate the Taubman technique ... just an example): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhKh71hIn2c
(It seems the above posters do not recognize that strong inner voice chords can be greatly helped, vis-a-vis a melody hit by the pinky, by the double escapement mechanism (i.e., keeping the inner strong chord deep in the key bed) ... and that there is an INFINITE number of possible positions of the una corda pedal (NOT just on/off!), and that it adds infinite color possibilities, not only softness ... as implied by the term "soft pedal" ... in a quality instrument)
Anyway, see Chopin 48/1 doppio movimento if you want to understand where the grand piano is far and away ahead of what you can achieve on the digital piano. The assertion that this can be replicated on the digital piano (Roland X or otherwise) is laughable. At best. No matter what "weighting", "graded hammer", or "escapement replication" there is. It is not even close to a quality acoustic upright, let alone a grand. Were this the case there would be absolutely no market for acoustic pianos!
Would you please explain to me how it is possible to play music to this standard on a digital piano, but not learn how to play music to this standard on the same digital piano?
I paid a visit to one of my favorite showrooms to play on the Fazioli grand there - and was shocked at how loud it was. Yet I'd played on that Fazioli frequently in the past, so what's changed? My playing - I was now thumping hard in a way I never did before. Because I was using the volume settings on the digitals at unrealistically low levels.
Conversely, you could also set the headphone volume high to force yourself to develop a lighter touch. I do both, as well as using a mid-range for normal practice. It's like having a variety of different practice instruments with just the turn of a knob. Cranking the volume down has helped me to build strength, like you did.
I do notice that the dynamic range of the digital is narrower than on the Knabe. Perhaps pp to ff instead of pppp to ffff. The other odd thing is that the initial attack is always hard and aggressive no matter how delicately you touch the keys.
I do notice that the dynamic range of the digital is narrower than on the Knabe. Perhaps pp to ff instead of pppp to ffff. The other odd thing is that the initial attack is always hard and aggressive no matter how delicately you touch the keys.
I'm not familiar with your digital, but on mine (Roland V-Piano) I get very realistic 'attack' just like on an acoustic (from velvety when played gently to super-aggressive when struck with full force), and a very realistic dynamic range too.
Dynamics can always be 'faked' on sampled digitals by increasing/decreasing the volume electronically, rather than by sampling the actual sound produced when the machine hits the key harder/softer - 'dewster' in the Digital Pianos forum has tested many DPs in his long-running 'DPBSD' thread and found some DPs that have unnaturally wide dynamic range - but it's pretty obvious when it's faked because you don't get the increasing brilliance (from more overtones in relation to fundamentals) when the key is struck harder, which you get from real pianos. That's the reason why I ended up buying the V-Piano, after auditioning all the high-end DPs in several stores - because its modelling technology gives unparalleled realism in its simulation of how real pianos respond to the touch and attack of the pianist. The V-Piano Grand as played by Miyuji Kaneko in DazedAndConfused's post above is basically the V-Piano's big brother, with cabinet and dedicated speakers that emulate the sound projection of an acoustic grand. (The original V-Piano itself is just a heavy slab and pedal unit, with no speakers).
Cranking the volume down has helped me to build strength, like you did.
This is what I am doing. Right now I have the opposite problem, I am too light with my touch when I go to lesson on the Steinway. My teacher is constantly telling me to press down with more force. So to work on that I have turned the volume down on my DP during practice. It has helped quite a bit.
And the P-155 has a heavier weighted keys - in fact, it feels about the same as the Steinway. But the Steinway feels much more mushy than my digital.
Last edited by scorpio; 12/31/1306:31 PM. Reason: added comments in italics