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Paul678 Offline OP
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Ok, so now that we have verified Dirk's software works
well, even for a stark beginner, what freeware software comes closest to the accuracy of Dirk's program?

I read somewhere that many of the other
freeware programs estimate inharmonicity by
sampling at a few notes, but do any of them
sample ALL the notes like Dirk's program?

In other words, which freeware program is the
most accurate at this time?

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Paul678 Offline OP
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Ultratune seems to have been a good freeware
program, but none of the links appear
to work:

http://www.antepedia.com/detail/p/245150117.html


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Just download the full version of Tunelab. The demo mode just causes it to pauses every 14 notes for 2 minutes, but, for an amateur, this is not a problem.

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Paul678 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by pyropaul
Just download the full version of Tunelab. The demo mode just causes it to pauses every 14 notes for 2 minutes, but, for an amateur, this is not a problem.


From one Paul to another Paul:

Ok, thanks, I'll try that!

smile

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I'm sure there's plenty of tasks that can be done in the 2 minutes of "downtime" between groups of 14 notes. For example, one could complete the unisons of the previously tuned 14 trichords and so on.

I would imagine a professional tuner could not afford the time to sample all 88 notes of a piano. In many respects, this is what an aural tuner is doing anyway and why the actual pitches of the notes don't fit exactly onto the Railsback curve but have little jumps all over the place to account for the real sound of the strings. I supposed if one knew the exact length and tension of all the strings then a more accurate computation could be made without having to sample every string. It would be interesting if this was provided by the manufacturer as a tuning file! Though aural tuners will be able to arrive at this anyway.

Paul

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Originally Posted by pyropaul
I'm sure there's plenty of tasks that can be done in the 2 minutes of "downtime" between groups of 14 notes. For example, one could complete the unisons of the previously tuned 14 trichords and so on.

I would imagine a professional tuner could not afford the time to sample all 88 notes of a piano. In many respects, this is what an aural tuner is doing anyway and why the actual pitches of the notes don't fit exactly onto the Railsback curve but have little jumps all over the place to account for the real sound of the strings. I supposed if one knew the exact length and tension of all the strings then a more accurate computation could be made without having to sample every string. It would be interesting if this was provided by the manufacturer as a tuning file! Though aural tuners will be able to arrive at this anyway.

Paul


Ok, I've got the FULL version of Tunelab Pro now.

So time to get busy learning how to use it properly.

If you look here:

http://www.dirksprojects.nl/index.php?Lan=english&Page=Tuner/piano_tuner_40.php

You can see the optimal stretch curve does NOT follow
a smooth curve at all, especially at the low end. So
to do this properly, it appears you have to sample every
note first.

Can I do this in Tunelab Pro?

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Originally Posted by pyropaul


I would imagine a professional tuner could not afford the time to sample all 88 notes of a piano. In many respects, this is what an aural tuner is doing anyway and why the actual pitches of the notes don't fit exactly onto the Railsback curve but have little jumps all over the place to account for the real sound of the strings. I supposed if one knew the exact length and tension of all the strings then a more accurate computation could be made without having to sample every string. It would be interesting if this was provided by the manufacturer as a tuning file! Though aural tuners will be able to arrive at this anyway.

Paul


Takes about 3 seconds per string to record. About 5 minutes.

After that, another 5 minutes for the software to analyze the sound and compute the "best" stretch.

Then you can save the recording and computed stretch. Call it the customer's name, and you won't have to do it again.

File name for every piano.

I tried re-recording 88 notes and re-computing the stretches. Same results every time. It doesn't change. So I feel very confident using the file I recorded last tuning.


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Paul678 Offline OP
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Ok, the default inharmonicity measurements suggested
by the help files in Tunelab Pro suggest C1, C2, C3, C4,
C5, and C6. I did this, but in an improper way: I
sampled from my digital Yamaha P85, so there was no way
to mute strings for notes that have more than one string.
So it's not correct until I get an acoustic piano (still working on that, but this was just a test).

Then it automatically generates a tuning curve as such:

[Linked Image]


The suggested curve higher than A4 makes sense, but
the curve below A4 looks to have 3 distinct sloping
regions, which you know has to be an extrapolation,
and probably an inaccurate one. Don't know if this
is because I sampled my digital piano (P85).

This looks to me like I should sample more than 6 notes,
like maybe at least 12 or so. I'll try it....

Also, can anyone tell me what the bottom graph is exactly?

Sorry for the newbie questions!

Last edited by Paul678; 12/26/13 12:29 PM.
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Originally Posted by noambenhamou


Takes about 3 seconds per string to record. About 5 minutes.

After that, another 5 minutes for the software to analyze the sound and compute the "best" stretch.

Then you can save the recording and computed stretch. Call it the customer's name, and you won't have to do it again.

File name for every piano.

I tried re-recording 88 notes and re-computing the stretches. Same results every time. It doesn't change. So I feel very confident using the file I recorded last tuning.




Yes, that has to be the superior method.

Sampling only 6 notes, and then extrapolating
a curve that does a rough estimation cannot be
as good.

And it doesn't sound like it takes a long time,
although you DO have to mute the extra strings, so
you only have one string vibrating during the sample,
which would certain be a bit of a pain.

But I may be joining you soon, and purchasing
Dirk's program, if Tunelab Pro doesn't cut it....

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Paul678,

If you do a search, you can find the thread about my piano tuned with the Ultratune software, along with audio samples and the evaluation by the pros here.

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Originally Posted by Hakki
Paul678,

If you do a search, you can find the thread about my piano tuned with the Ultratune software, along with audio samples and the evaluation by the pros here.


Ok, it would appear Tunelab has failed you, but
since you stated the tuner used a Petrof template
and did NOT take IH measurements on YOUR piano,
all bets are off in my opinion.

To me, the piano sounded decently in tune.

I'll just have to try this out myself.

Or break down and get Dirk's program. Nobody
here could argue with that tuning.....


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Actually I was not referring to the Tunelab tuning.

There is another thread before that, about the tuning of my piano done using the Ultratune software as well. Which is a software that measures all the inharmonicity on the fly. (similar to Verituner)

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BTW, Easytune, which is the same software as Ultratune seems to be still available.

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Originally Posted by Paul678
sample every
note first.

Can I do this in Tunelab Pro?

Yes but it is a bit pointless as tunelab will interpolate you data with a smooth curve.

Kees

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Originally Posted by Paul678

Also, can anyone tell me what the bottom graph is exactly?

Sorry for the newbie questions!

I explained this in some detail in a recent thread (by Ryan I think). Use the search option to find it.

Kees

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Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by Paul678
sample every
note first.

Can I do this in Tunelab Pro?

Yes but it is a bit pointless as tunelab will interpolate you data with a smooth curve.

Kees



Then perhaps it's calculating the best stretch
incorrectly? And I wouldn't call the first curve
I posted in the pic above exactly "smooth" because
it has 3 separate slopes in the bass end. The discontinuity between the slopes aren't smooth. Am I stuck with 3
separate slopes in the bass end, no matter how many
iH samples I take?

Dirk's program appears to do it correctly.

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Originally Posted by Paul678
Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by Paul678
sample every
note first.

Can I do this in Tunelab Pro?

Yes but it is a bit pointless as tunelab will interpolate you data with a smooth curve.

Kees



Then perhaps it's calculating the best stretch
incorrectly? And I wouldn't call the first curve
I posted in the pic above exactly "smooth" because
it has 3 separate slopes in the bass end. The discontinuity between the slopes aren't smooth. Am I stuck with 3
separate slopes in the bass end, no matter how many
iH samples I take?

Dirk's program appears to do it correctly.

You don't understand what the tunelab curve means.
Please do the search I suggested where I explain.

The tunelab interface to the deviation curve and its documentation is clearly designed by an engineer, hence not easy to understand for non technical people.

This board has a FAQ which seems to contain random mostly useless stuff. A tunelab tutorial would be nice to have there, as this question comes up so often: "what the heck is that deviation curve??".

Kees

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Paul678 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by Paul678
Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by Paul678
sample every
note first.

Can I do this in Tunelab Pro?

Yes but it is a bit pointless as tunelab will interpolate you data with a smooth curve.

Kees



Then perhaps it's calculating the best stretch
incorrectly? And I wouldn't call the first curve
I posted in the pic above exactly "smooth" because
it has 3 separate slopes in the bass end. The discontinuity between the slopes aren't smooth. Am I stuck with 3
separate slopes in the bass end, no matter how many
iH samples I take?

Dirk's program appears to do it correctly.

You don't understand what the tunelab curve means.
Please do the search I suggested where I explain.

The tunelab interface to the deviation curve and its documentation is clearly designed by an engineer, hence not easy to understand for non technical people.

This board has a FAQ which seems to contain random mostly useless stuff. A tunelab tutorial would be nice to have there, as this question comes up so often: "what the heck is that deviation curve??".

Kees


Kees, can you post a link to your explanation?

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Originally Posted by Paul678
Kees, can you post a link to your explanation?


Here

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Originally Posted by Bosendorff
Originally Posted by Paul678
Kees, can you post a link to your explanation?


Here


Thanks, I don't remember writing that. I was thinking of the thread called: "Understanding the deviation curve and octave type in Tunelab".

Kees

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