Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum A question from Zee

Hi everyone I'm Zee, I'm new to the forum, & new to the piano also (2 weeks & counting!), I'm using a keyboard atm (Yamaha piaggero np-31) but am hoping to get my hands on an actual piano!

I just have one question atm -

I'm getting back pains between my shoulder blades when playing, since I've adjusted my posture, I don't want to hurt myself by ignoring it, and am wondering if these kind of back pains are normal when you're adjusting your posture from basically slumping most of the time, to sitting up straight...? I'm pretty sure I've got the right height and distance. If this is normal, what kinda of aches & pains should I be looking out for that aren't normal & could cause a problem?

I had pains in my wrists to start with till I adjusted my height & distance, but now it's basically just aching pain inbetween the shoulders and kinda middle back.

Get "What Every Pianist Needs to Know About the Body" by Thomas Mark. You'll learn to understand how the body functions in playing and more. You will also learn what "sitting up straight" is NOT.

What are you sitting on?

Ok,thanks keystring, I' ll add that to my reading list, sure amazon will have a copy for me!

Malkin, I'm using the kind of swivel chair you'd have at a computer desk, but it's a little low for the height of the keyboard, so am having to sit on a couple of cushions to add some height.

One reason that a real bench works better is that a relatively optimal position is to be towards the front edge of it, rather than in the middle or the back. Chairs aren't designed that way, particularly ones with additional cushions(!) because they are shaped. Benches are, mostly, flat so you can sit.

Check out this page, it's a good one for discussion of piano posture:

Well Balanced Pianist

+1 for the suggestion of "What Every Pianist Needs to Know about the Body." It's a fantastic book.

One advantage that beginners have over the rest of us is they can learn from the very earliest point how to sit properly, how to use their hands and arms and how to identify tension and remove it. I will say, there is no substitute for a good teacher ...

If you have discomfort or pain, you are doing something wrong or playing too much. You have to correct that.

You really should have a piano bench of some kind and be sure you are situated properly at the piano.

You should be completely comfortable when you are playing.

First, if you're hurting, _stop_ ! Something is wrong. "Back pain" and "shoulder pain" shouldn't go along with playing piano.

I can suggest a way to proceed, if either your chair or your piano height is adjustable.

1. Sit in the chair, arms at your side, and measure the distance from your elbow to the ground.

2. Measure the distance from the top of the keyboard (the surface of the white keys) to the ground.

3. Adjust either the piano, or the chair, so that the keyboard is about 4" below your elbows.

With arched hands, that should be a decent starting position. It will keep your forearms horizontal -- you won't be reaching down to the keyboard, or up to the keyboard.

If your heels end up off the ground, lower the chair, and lower the keyboard to match. [That doesn't work with an acoustic piano, of course!]

There are pedals and other stuff to consider -- teachers are really good for these problems.

But, to repeat:

. . . You shouldn't be hurting.

. Charles

As has been said, a bench or a proper stool will support your bum--you are likely to be sinking in to a chair cushion and tilting backward.

Happy Birthday, Andy!!

If I had 4 inches (100mm) keys to elbow, the bottom o` the keybed`d be imbedded inn my knees . . . . I must have sloping shoulders, or a monkey is my uncle . . . .

Next installment. "Why do my hands hurt?"

I couldn't add anything to the advice here already given or even know what to offer any in the first place but I do have to ask if this pain is experienced elsewhere? Maybe it has nothing to do with the way you're sitting at the piano.

I had an immediate guess when I read this:

I didn't want to give answers, because trying to fix physical things from following advice which causes problems. Don't ask how I know.

People try to "sit straight" the wrong way. In fact, historically there is a lot of wrong advice about "sitting straight". That is why I suggested the book that I did, because among other things, he goes into that. An Internet search will also show up people ranting about what has been done, and trying to fix it.

The minute I read "pain between shoulder blades" together with "adjust posture" and "avoid slumping", my guess was that you were doing some kind of "shoulders back", maybe end up arching your back.

I won't advise you on what TO do except to get the book by T. Mark so you can get some insights. I'm still working my way out of the nonsense that I absorbed.

Yes, that can be a problem! But if the key surface is any higher than that, getting a "proper" curve to the fingers (with a straight wrist) is difficult.

. . . Are your forearms horizontal when you play?

. . . Or do they slope upward, from elbow to wrist?

It took me a while to accept that my chair had to be higher than I liked, and the X-stand had to be set 1/2 notch _below_ its lowest setting. But then, I could play comfortably, with forearms level.

As the previous post says, it's tough to give rules remotely. It might be worth reviewing videos of concert players, to see what their "body-to-piano" relationship is.

. Charles

Hi Zee,

A few things to add to what's already been said:
1. I agree that you need a real piano bench.
2. I strongly recommend that you have an experienced pianist watch you while you play (at least once), and see if you're doing anything wrong physically.
3. I don't think you said how long you practice for. I'm guessing that as a beginner you don't stay at the piano very long at one time, but if you do, you should break up your practicing into smaller time periods. On the other hand, I've seen some adult beginners get very enthusiastic and sit there for 6-8 hours at a time. This can cause circulation problems and upper back pain if you don't stand up and stretch occasionally.
4. As an adult, we have to be careful not to 'overdo' it when we begin something like this, which involves new physical postures. Give your body time to get used to the new position and arm/hand movements.
I hope this helps!
Ron

Wow, thank you guys for all the tips, & message recieved - stop practicing if it starts hurting.

Ok so I'm keeping my eyes out of for a piano bench that I can afford, hopefully it'll reach high enough! & possibly a teacher too, though my cash flow isn't looking too pretty atm, so the latter might have to wait.

Keystring, your post made me laugh, that is exactly what I've been doing! :|
Going to stop trying to sit all 'proper like' till I've given that marks' book a good read.

RUSS, it is literally just when I'm playing, thank god!

Ron, regarding how often I practice, to be honest I was probably over doing it to start, sitting for hours on end, practicing most of the day away, though I think now the initial sprint to try and become an expert in 3 days is over, I would say I've probably been happily spending between like 3 - 6 hours a day including breaks, I'm not sure if that's still over doing it or not... or even how long I will keep that pace up, but I do know I'm really enjoying it!

Go someplace and play a piano with a bench. (Like a piano store.). Compare how sitting on a bench feels with what you've got at home, so that you can figure out how to replicate that correct seating at home.

FWIW --

This kind of drive to "practice till I drop" pops up here occasionally. More than once, the result has been:

. . . I can't play -- it starts hurting as soon as I hit a key.

You're a beginner. Stop after an hour, or when something hurts -- WHICHEVER COMES FIRST!

. Charles

Zee,
For a bench, consider an adjustable keyboard or"stage" bench, such as

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/benches-stools

The On-Stage KT7800 is a good height-adjustable bench for $35. There' are also benches for $25. Check the reviews and sites.

Ditto all the good advice already given here. The T. Mark book will explain.

Best wishes!

Well, it sounds like you're on your way to some healthy practicing. Have fun!

I recognized it from the symptoms.