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#2202962 - 12/26/13 12:49 AM Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory??  
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,620
kpembrook Offline
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kpembrook  Offline
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Michigan
First of all, let me say that I support the current ban on international trade of ivory. It has saved elephant herds that were on the brink of extermination. However . . .

It is now being proposed that there be a total ban on all ivory sales. How that would be implemented would have to emerge as the bureaucratic process was developed. However, it could mean that that nice old Steinway (or old upright) with the ivory keytops could no longer be sold. It could also mean that you couldn't glue on a new ivory head onto an otherwise-good set of ivory keys.

And, banning the internal trade in used ivory would not save a single elephant.

My wife is a violinist and I got the information from one of her suppliers. Check it out and let your voice be heard.


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
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#2203022 - 12/26/13 09:34 AM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: kpembrook]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,042
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014
bkw58  Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,042
Conway, AR USA
Thanks, Keith.

The ban was - and is still - a good policy. The current proposal is yet another throw-baby-out-with-bathwater "solution." The Powers That Be simply need to enforce extant law and leave pre-ban and reclaimed ivory alone. Neither wife nor I can tolerate hydroplaning on molded plastic. And so, I suppose we'd better take our little box of pre-ban, reclaimed ivory - used only for replacing pre-ban, unsalvageable tops, tails, and fronts on our own piano - and take it to the lockbox. Might not hurt to do the same with our ebony sharps. Who knows? These could be next.

There is still plenty of reclaimable ivory key top, tail and front out there. A couple of weeks ago, I had to pass on an old upright at a flea market with a nice set of ivory and ebony. $50 for the whole piano. No longer have the ways and means to handle these Behemoths.


Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
#2203075 - 12/26/13 11:53 AM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: kpembrook]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Silverwood Pianos  Offline
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Vancouver B. C. Canada

Idealism is never a good solution as prohibition only drives the sales underground and therefore impossible to monitor accurately.
Secondly a ban such as this would be virtually unenforceable.

Thirdly to do an end run around the law I could “donate” an ivory wafer head or tail, installed, and then the client could make a tax free “donation” to my business.


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#2203084 - 12/26/13 12:09 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: kpembrook]  
Joined: Apr 2008
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Emmery Offline
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Emmery  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Niagara Region, On. Canada
There are two problems that need different approaches to solve.

As for the slippery plastic piano keys, manufacturers need to step up their game and develop synthetics which better mimic the properties of ivory. So far, I beleive only Kawai has done anything to this effect and its still falls somewhat short IMHO.

As for the poaching, society needs to push the "taboo" aspect of utilizing the ivory for such uses as male enhancement, aphrodesiac, fever reduction etc... As long as some idiot whose name rhymes with the sound of a fork hitting a wall thinks he can make his "piano key" stiffer with the ingestion of elephant ivory, walrus tusk or seal penis...the illegal market will be there for it and the banns just drive up the price.

Heavier fines and punishment should be dealt out for the poaching business and the Johns who support it. Perhaps scientists could figure out a way to inject a chemical into the tusks which would be harmless to the animal, but create medical issues for anyone who ingests or handles it...that would be a good start.


Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
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#2203102 - 12/26/13 12:54 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: kpembrook]  
Joined: Aug 2004
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TimR Offline
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TimR  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Virginia, USA
The reasoning behind the ban has changed recently.

It is now asserted that the ivory poaching is a major source of terrorist organization funding. If true, that makes for a much more organized and destructive impact on a limited game population.

So the feeling is apparently that enforcement is not enough, there needs to be an attack on the profitability by reducing demand.

I'm not sure I buy this as a strategy but I can understand how some would, and how difficult it may be to resist.


gotta go practice
#2203125 - 12/26/13 02:25 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: kpembrook]  
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Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Silverwood Pianos  Offline
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Vancouver B. C. Canada

Banning sales in N. America of pre ban ivory, domesticated ivory, or products made from other types of tusks will do little in the way of preventing elephant poaching.

Follow the money to the source of the demand for poached ivory, which is Asia.


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#2203231 - 12/26/13 07:02 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: Emmery]  
Joined: Oct 2006
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David Jenson Offline
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David Jenson  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,539
Maine
Originally Posted by Emmery
As long as some idiot whose name rhymes with the sound of a fork hitting a wall thinks he can make his "piano key" stiffer with the ingestion of elephant ivory, walrus tusk or seal penis...the illegal market will be there for it and the banns just drive up the price.


I can't think of anything that rhymes with "boink". confused


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
#2203240 - 12/26/13 07:27 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: David Jenson]  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,715
Rod Verhnjak Offline
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Rod Verhnjak  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,715
Vancouver B.C. Canada
Originally Posted by David Jenson
Originally Posted by Emmery
As long as some idiot whose name rhymes with the sound of a fork hitting a wall thinks he can make his "piano key" stiffer with the ingestion of elephant ivory, walrus tusk or seal penis...the illegal market will be there for it and the banns just drive up the price.


I can't think of anything that rhymes with "boink". confused


What about "twang" then?


Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

www.pianoman.ca
Verhnjak Pianos Facebook

#2203244 - 12/26/13 07:32 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: TimR]  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,556
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member
OperaTenor  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,556
Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted by TimR
The reasoning behind the ban has changed recently.

It is now asserted that the ivory poaching is a major source of terrorist organization funding. If true, that makes for a much more organized and destructive impact on a limited game population.

So the feeling is apparently that enforcement is not enough, there needs to be an attack on the profitability by reducing demand.

I'm not sure I buy this as a strategy but I can understand how some would, and how difficult it may be to resist.


Recycled ivory key tops = siding with terrorists

Yeah, I get it...



Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind
#2203265 - 12/26/13 08:14 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: kpembrook]  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,715
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Rod Verhnjak  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,715
Vancouver B.C. Canada
The whole issue of pianos with illegal ivory is crazy. I do not know any piano rebuilder that would go out and purchase ivory from an illegal source and install it on a keyboard. For that matter install legal ivory.

Most of us are quite fine installing high quality acrylic tops.

I have 36 pianos here with ivory keys. 30 of them being grands. If the law gets passed in the U.S. Canada will be right behind them. What a pain.

I also have 3 grands heading to the U.S. in the new year with ivory. I can right now get the cities permits for them but fear I will not be able to if this goes through.

Frustrated!!!!



Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

www.pianoman.ca
Verhnjak Pianos Facebook

#2203300 - 12/26/13 09:41 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: Rod Verhnjak]  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,539
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member
David Jenson  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,539
Maine
Originally Posted by Rod Verhnjak
Originally Posted by David Jenson
Originally Posted by Emmery
As long as some idiot whose name rhymes with the sound of a fork hitting a wall thinks he can make his "piano key" stiffer with the ingestion of elephant ivory, walrus tusk or seal penis...the illegal market will be there for it and the banns just drive up the price.


I can't think of anything that rhymes with "boink". confused


What about "twang" then?


Well ... I've been throwing forks at the wall all evening, and none of 'em make a "twang" sound. Maybe I've got cheap silverware. Maybe it was made in China. wink


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
#2203339 - 12/26/13 10:51 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: kpembrook]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014
Minnesota Marty  Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
David, plastic forks just don't work. Those are for picnics and then you don't have walls anyway.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2203342 - 12/26/13 11:01 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: kpembrook]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,042
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014
bkw58  Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,042
Conway, AR USA
Well, if the rhyming sound is "ding," then my IQ just dropped another 50 points. But I really think the "piano key" in question is metaphorical.


Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
#2203346 - 12/26/13 11:07 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: bkw58]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,042
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014
bkw58  Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,042
Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted by bkw58
Well, if the rhyming sound is "ding," then my IQ just dropped another 50 points. But I really think the "piano key" in question is metaphorical.


That's the "G Rated" observation. This is, after all, a family forum.

Last edited by bkw58; 12/26/13 11:08 PM. Reason: typo

Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
#2203347 - 12/26/13 11:08 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: David Jenson]  
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,893
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member
TimR  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,893
Virginia, USA
Originally Posted by David Jenson
Originally Posted by Rod Verhnjak
Originally Posted by David Jenson
Originally Posted by Emmery
As long as some idiot whose name rhymes with the sound of a fork hitting a wall thinks he can make his "piano key" stiffer with the ingestion of elephant ivory, walrus tusk or seal penis...the illegal market will be there for it and the banns just drive up the price.


I can't think of anything that rhymes with "boink". confused


What about "twang" then?




Well ... I've been throwing forks at the wall all evening, and none of 'em make a "twang" sound. Maybe I've got cheap silverware. Maybe it was made in China. wink


I've thrown China at the wall; it is very satisfying but forks are easier to clean up.


gotta go practice
#2203368 - 12/27/13 12:04 AM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]  
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,620
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member
kpembrook  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,620
Michigan
Originally Posted by Silverwood Pianos


Thirdly to do an end run around the law I could “donate” an ivory wafer head or tail, installed, and then the client could make a tax free “donation” to my business.


This ploy won't work -- either in Canada or USA. Both countries are signatories to the current CITES ban on cross-border ivory transfer. Doesn't matter if you give or sell it -- transfer of ivory is illegal. Same would be the case within the country . Here in the USA we are looking at it being illegal for Aunt Sophie to pass down her antique ivory brooch to her niece Susie.



Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
#2203515 - 12/27/13 11:53 AM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: kpembrook]  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,539
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member
David Jenson  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,539
Maine
All "good" laws have unintended consequences and unforeseen complications. That alone should make us wary of new laws and uneasy with signing treaties.


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
#2203647 - 12/27/13 05:07 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: kpembrook]  
Joined: Sep 2004
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Gene Nelson Offline
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Gene Nelson  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,001
Old Hangtown California
Have not seen any elephant huggers lately.


RPT
PTG Member

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