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Originally Posted by Kuanpiano
Your mileage may vary, but most competitions which are not international-scale have enough restrictions that make programming a full sonata difficult. What can you do when you are require to present a variety of styles in just 25 minutes? You can't even perform the Liszt sonata in that time.


Not to mention a lot of beethoven sonatas. But this competition is international, just for youth musicians

Last edited by A Guy; 12/21/13 10:50 PM.
A Guy #2201202 12/21/13 10:42 PM
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I thought you meant playing only parts of a sonata.

A Guy #2201206 12/21/13 10:49 PM
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No haha I don't think that's allowed in any competition

A Guy #2201214 12/21/13 11:36 PM
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Huh? If it's not allowed in any competition, why are you planning to do it?


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Polyphonist
A Guy #2201237 12/22/13 12:32 AM
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I thought Joel meant playing part of, say, the first movement

A Guy #2201240 12/22/13 12:39 AM
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He said "parts of a sonata" - I would interpret that to mean individual movements.


Regards,

Polyphonist
A Guy #2201242 12/22/13 12:46 AM
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Yeah normally I would too, but i interpreted the way he phrased it as if there was a miscommunication somewhere

A Guy #2201249 12/22/13 01:23 AM
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Did you chaps know that Dom. Scarlatti was born in the same year as JS Bach and GF Handel? 1685.

A Guy #2201406 12/22/13 02:59 PM
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A bit of a reality check, people.

In the BBC Young Musician Competition (the winner of which goes on to the Eurovision Young Musician), participants are given no more than 16 minutes to impress the judges in the preliminaries. (That includes breaks between movements/pieces, or tuning time for the string players). Try fitting a decent complete Beethoven Sonata in that time. And don't forget, you want to show musicality and technical accomplishment. Almost invariably, successful performers play at least two pieces, usually three - often a movement of a sonata (or movements from two different sonatas), and something virtuosic to finish.

In the finals, at least in the BBC competition, the finalists get to play complete concertos (lasting between 15 - 30 minutes only: therefore, no Rach 2/3 or Brahms). Not so in the Eurovision - participants get to play just one movement of a concerto, unless of course it's a short one-movement work like Prok 1. And this is a prestigious European youth competition - previous winners have included Julia Fischer and Julian Rachlin. Better choose wisely........


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
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For BBC initial round is 8 minutes and Category audition rounds is 12 minutes. Category finals and all instrument semi-finals are 16 minutes. Final is anything between 15-30minutes.

Daughter failed to make it to Category finals, but got through initial rounds.

Originally Posted by bennevis
A bit of a reality check, people.

In the BBC Young Musician Competition (the winner of which goes on to the Eurovision Young Musician), participants are given no more than 16 minutes to impress the judges in the preliminaries. (That includes breaks between movements/pieces, or tuning time for the string players).

A Guy #2202347 12/24/13 01:12 PM
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Thanks for the info, and congrats to your daughter for making it past the initial rounds. It's a tough competition.

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Originally Posted by suniil
For BBC initial round is 8 minutes and Category audition rounds is 12 minutes. Category finals and all instrument semi-finals are 16 minutes. Final is anything between 15-30minutes.



I remember the time (until about 10 years ago) when BBC YM finalists could choose any concerto to play - of any length. Rach 2 and even Rach 3 was played then.

Now, only Beethoven's 2nd would fit in whole (possibly) among his concertos. And no Chopin either.

Still, there's Rach/Pag, Rach 1 & 4, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Grieg, Liszt, Shostakovich, Bartok......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
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Thank you, she is only learning piano for 4 years and 12 years old. She can go for another 3 times until age 18, if she want to! She tried to be different with her repertoire, like chopin / liszt etudes & Rachmaninoff preludes but but I think Baroque-Classical blend is necessary.

So, Scarlatti sonata / Baroque pieces are necessary in my opinion. Even picking a movement from Beethoven sonata is tricky to fit into the exact time.

A Guy: Yes, I've seen many times in BBC YM that scarlatti sonatas performed in pair, but I don't know why!!

Originally Posted by A Guy
Thanks for the info, and congrats to your daughter for making it past the initial rounds. It's a tough competition.


bennevis: She don't have any concerto other than a Mendelssohn concerto No.1 in repertoire (never performed with orchestra)

Last edited by suniil; 12/24/13 04:18 PM.
A Guy #2202436 12/24/13 04:53 PM
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I think it's because when Scarlatti originally wrote the sonatas, he wrote them to be performed in pairs. Anyway, that's what I think from this thread and a google search.

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I don't think it's unequivocally clear that the sonatas were intended to be performed in pairs, though often the pairs suggested by Kirkpatrick work well. But I do prefer to hear at least two performed at a time, with the exceptions of those sonatas which have significantly contrasting sections (K. 162 in E and K. 513 in C come to mind). Somehow one doesn't seem "substantial" enough to me, not that that's a reflection of their quality. I feel the same about many other sets of short pieces like Chopin etudes, Rachmaninoff preludes/etudes, etc.


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A Guy #2202560 12/24/13 10:13 PM
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I agree that one Scarlatti sonata doesn't seem substantial enough. However, I always felt that one chopin etude or rachmaninoff prelude/etude was enough... Funny

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One fast Scarlatti Sonata seems inappropriate for a recital or competition. But a single slow and lengthy one can work IMO as it did very well here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxlVrYjPmT0

In a normal concert recital I'm not sure if I've ever heard as few as two Scarlatti Sonatas played. Horowitz usually played more than two if recall correctly. I heard Maria Tipo play 12 Scarlatti Sonatas on the second half of a program where the first half wes the 4 Chopin Ballades.

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Originally Posted by A Guy
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
It's still preferable to get rid of partial sonatas, ESPECIALLY partial Beethoven sonatas. They simply do not work.


Who ever thought a partial sonata was a good idea? sick

Apparently he did. laugh


I prefer to play complete sonatas. However, I feel that a partial sonata is acceptable in this competition for reasons listed above...


At any rate, in real life, rather than in internet forums, pianists do play parts of sonatas, usually as encores. I've heard that happen more than once.

I think a fairly trivial sort of pedantry is involved when people insist that sonatas must always be performed in their entirety, or not at all. Many of Beethoven sonatas were frequently publicly performed in piecemeal fashion before entire public performances ever took place.

And even more to the point, Beethoven himself cut the "Andante favori" out of the Waldstein, and permanently turned it into a sonata movement that was to be performed independently of the sonata for which it was first written. Which means, amusingly enough, that anyone who performs it is violating the stricture against performing just a part of a sonata.




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I still wait for the performance of the Waldstein with the Andante Favori instead of the current intro to the finale.


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Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
I still wait for the performance of the Waldstein with the Andante Favori instead of the current intro to the finale.

I'm sure somebody has attempted it in formal recital, though I don't recall reading about any instances.

And yet... as delectable as the Andante favori is, you presumably wouldn't rate it over what Beethoven replaced it with- as a piece of music or its function within the sonata?


Jason
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