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Valencia, I fixed the link, there was fault in the url!

There are some exceptions, but I actually find Chopin pieces easier to memorize. He writes for the piano, so the notes naturally falls into place. You just have to know how to look for them.

For example, this is a section seems daunting with all the naturals, sharps, and whatnot. But, if you look closely, it's just Chopin writing in A-major, but keeping the key signature of G minor (as zrtf mentioned already). If you think about it in A major key (F#, C#, G#) then you have far less accidentals to worry about:


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Somebody said the following measures are tricky right? The first measure (M112) is A major with an added accidental of E# plus a little chromatic lead up (A#, B-nat, B#) to the second to last note C# (one accidental + chromatic lead up). The second measure (M113) is A major with an added accidental of D#, which is actually E major. So if you look at this measure as an E major measure, then there are no accidentals to worry about... on, there's an E#, sorry. One accidental here.


As for 4 vs. 3 rhythmic pattern, I tend to gloss over that. For me anyway (and it could be different for everybody), once my hands are comfortable with the fingering my mind concentrates on the downbeats and the hands just take care of the 4 vs. 3. I find thinking about them too much actually makes the rhythm worse. Also, this is romantic music, a little rubato here and there is fine too.

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Then the scales at the end of this section. This gave me some trouble until I saw the pattern. Nearly all of the time, there is a pattern in Chopin's music. It's just a bit obscured by the accidentals.

I noted these things in Notable Scores (plug for my website!) but I'll paste them here:

The key to the following runs is to think of these as scales and subsequent minor (1-2 notes) modifications of the first scale. It's like Chopin is trying different modulation. Also, in each of these scales the first two notes I perceive as lead up. The first note E#, F##, and F## respectively are just a chromatic dip.

For example, I think this is the G# minor scale with an added D natural (one accidental + chromatic dip of E#)


G# minor scale, with an added a B# (only one accidental + chromatic dip of F##)


G# minor scale, but now we have E#, and F## (two accidentals + chromatic dip of F##)


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If you think of it this way, this section is more manageable since there are less accidentals to worry about. In each of the sections above, there are at most 2 accidentals per measure if you transpose them into their relative keys.

Not quite. I said they looked tricky but weren't awkward to play. Once you "look carefully" and realise it's in A major there's really not much to it. I was saying that playing through it wouldn't be feasible for me because of my lesser reading skills compared to my playing skills.

I had already pointed out that it was in A major and easy enough to play and memorise - just not while playing from the score where I wouldn't have the luxury of time to "look carefully".

Valencia, there's really not much there to memorise in RH when you consider that I've had this piece swirling round my head for nearly thirty years. I wouldn't actually do it in an evening. I seldom do more than twenty or thirty minutes on one piece. I usually have five or six pieces to work on each day and seldom go as far as ninety minutes at the piano during the week.

And did you not memorise the Presto agitato, 11 pages, in a rather short time?

Don't think about it this way. There are three scales: B major, C# melodic minor, and G# melodic minor, over harmonies of F#7, G#7, and C#/G# minor respectively.

I've spent a lot of time here this week and I'm very pleased with how well it's gone. My technique has certainly grown since I last looked seriously at this but my reading skills are unrecognisable from two years ago.

Most of the material up to M125 I've done before and I just need to spend some time on M48-55 before I start rememorising it. I'll probably start working M48-55 as a weekend technical exercise before April.

Come April I'll start working through the B section in order, M106-125, M125-137, M138-150 and M150-166. Since I'll be working on other pieces concurrently and I tend to change my pieces every week I'd expect to stay here for about three months memorising it and getting it fast enough to be presentable.

Starting July I plan to work backwards through the coda in five sections, M250-264, M238-250, M224-238, M216-224 and M208-216. The latter appears to be the hardest 4/8 bars but not impossible. M216-224 I got up to a reasonable lick in very short order, RH only, and M224-228 is just an extension of it. I'll allow myself another three months here because of the extra speed needed and the precision of those scale passages. They'll need to be worked up slowly from daily repetitions. There are a few such passages between M126 and M166.

I doubt I'll ever reach a presto here but less than a molto allegro defeats the purpose so I'll need to get this up to an allegro without getting sloppy before moving on.

That'll leave me the last quarter to work on the recap, M166-180, M180-193 and M194-208. I would hope to have recovered up to M105 on weekends throughout the year. I've played thus far from the score this week without much effort apart from M48-55.

Apart from isolated peaks the biggest difficulty I can see from here is the paucity of repetition and the sheer variety of technical requirements in so short a space. This means the process of joining the sections together should be delayed until the parts are well established in the fingers. Even if I manage to put these four major sections together in 2014 I doubt the whole piece will be playable in one go, apart from the occasional weekend, for a good way into 2015 without suffering some loss.

Thanks so much everyone for your contributions to this thread. I'm visiting family atm so less time to practice piano and respond here, but I promise I will properly get back to it soon.

No worries Ganddalf, you didn't discourage me!

neuralfirings, thanks so much for your post and i'll give this a try on that daunting page. i think I will start trying to memorize that one now. Your notable scores is very helpful for discussing the piece here! Today i reviewed a few bars of that page HS, LH and RH, and started trying to play those few bars HS without looking at the score.

Richard, it is true i memorized the beethoven movement relatively quickly for me! but that piece seemed different. Perhaps easier because of the repetitious patterns? In contrast, there was a song without words for the mendelssohn recital that took me months to memorize (85/1). For the ballade (and while I'm visiting family) I'm first trying to revive/finish my memory of the notes of the coda and the scherzando. (notes only, very slowly) Once I do this, I can at least practice them alongside the rest.

ok more later!

Hi Everyone,

I haven’t been able to do much focused practice on any of my pieces. My mother is in the hospital in a city away from here, and so everyday we travel there and back in order to see her. This leaves little time for piano.

For the Ballade, I’m still basically surveying the piece in preparation for studying it in 2014.

Several months ago I’d started memorizing the coda (M208 on) and the scherzando (M126-165) but then I left them to practice other pieces. In the last couple of weeks I’ve been working on re-remembering these sections. I cannot play either of them smoothly even slowly yet and sometimes my memory works so hard to recall notes I swear my brain starts smoking.

This last week I worked a bit on M206-207 which is challenging.

I’ve tried playing through M166-193 (no memory and just notes which are no where near smooth)—so far this is one of my favorite parts to play. But I think memorizing the LH of this section will be difficult. (for me…..because I don’t recognize the names of all the changes in the arpeggios).

This morning I looked at M36-43. This part is very difficult for me. How to memorize it? I will need to memorize it to be able to play it. I’ve also started memorizing M44-51.

My focus thus far is just getting familiar with the notes and sections. I haven’t looked at dynamics or anything else. Everyone else working on this piece in this thread is more advanced than I am, and I’m trying to get myself to a place where I can work along here with others at least to some extent. Also, this kind of basic notes-focused practice is easier to do than focusing on the subtleties of some of my other pieces because my mum has not been well so the more detailed practicing of my other pieces has been hard to focus on. So when I have a chance to get to the piano, I’ve been working on the Ballade!

Hope everyone is well and look forward in the new year to studying this piece with all of you!

Oh my. What a delightful challenge! It is way beyond my level but perhaps someday!?

Good luck! I saw YouTube video of the Guardian Editor who made it through this Ballade. It was very impressive and instructive and inspirational.

Alan Rusbridger also wrote about the year he spent learning the piece.

"Play It Again - An Amateur Against The Impossible"

http://www.amazon.ca/Play-It-Again-...id=FM0DUWL5A7Y4&coliid=IHJ4XQN8FYQH7

Good luck Valencia et al.

Count me in! I printed out the score a while back after seeing a documentary called "Chopin saved my life", which featured this piece. I love it but haven't spent much time on it because it sounds bloody difficult!

I'm not a beginner in terms of time - I had lessons when I was a kid, but have never been that confident, and am more of a long term dabbler. If you guys are beginners then I think you are biting off too much with this piece. It's quite advanced - not quite a Liszt etude, but beyond grade 8 and pieces like the Fantaisie Impromptu.

This piece is almost making me want to quit piano right now. Take it really slowly, or prepare for some major frustration. Alternatively, lower your expectations. I'm trying to do that, because I want to play this like a pro, and it's apparent to me now that that will not be happening any time soon, if at all

Happy new year to all of you

Uh... Sam Rose, I just watched your video of this on YouTube, and you did a great job! I mean, it's not a pro performance obviously, but it's amazing just to get all the notes in the right order at the right time, if you'd only been playing 2 and a half years! This is great and inspirational, and I would be very happy to play it that well. Looks like you have a very nice piano to practice on though. Do other family members play?

Lolatu, Valencia and Richard,

Good luck to you all. I think the piece is well worth of your efforts. One of my studio mates in college has been playing the piece for 18 months to date and it is sounding better and better. At the same time I noticed that her other pieces started sounding better too. Apparently what you learn through the piece is transferrable to other pieces too.

I would love to someday join you but now am not even close to trying the piece. I would like to play smaller Chopin pieces and classical composers works for now. I may try A flat major Ballade or Fantasie Impromptu in two years before attempting the piece. So it will be 3-5 years away. I look forward to listening to your recording.

Thanks, but it is NOT good enough. One day...

About the piano, nobody else plays. I started playing in September 2010 on a friend's keyboard when I was living in New York, and since then I've bought and sold about 10 different used pianos in Los Angeles (Yamaha U1, Young Chang upright, Yamaha G2, 2 Yamaha C3s, Mason & Hamlin B, Kawai RX-2, Baldwin R, Yamaha spinet, Yamaha console, and maybe some others I've forgotten). The C3 I have in the video is my favorite. It's a 1992 model, and was not played at all by the first owner, so it's basically brand new. And it's capable of MUCH more than I am, which is just the way I like it

Now if only I could REALLY learn to play it. Maybe I should go back to a crappy upright so that I can blame the piano instead of my own ineptitude?

lolatu, great to have you on board! I’m not a beginner in terms of time either, as I took lessons 25 years ago (or more?!). But I do not play that well. I should probably follow FarmGirl and wait to learn it as it is above my current level. But I feel compelled to try it now. Who knows what will happen in a few years? Maybe my arthritis will make it so that I cannot play it at all. And even if not, I figure if I learn it now I will have the rest of my piano playing years to work on the piece and improve it.

FarmGirl, Calgary Mike and AZ Astro, thanks for your posts and encouragement! I’ve read up about Alan Rusbridger and he had one of the busiest years of his working life and still managed to learn the Ballade on only a short bit of practice each day.

Sam Rose, I’m sorry to hear you are feeling discouraged with this piece! FWIW, I thought you played the piece very well and would be thrilled to be able to play it as you did. Of course you won’t be able to play it yet like the pros. You haven’t been playing it that long! What are you struggling with right now in terms of your playing with this piece? I think playing it like the pros takes a lot of years of experience. You will get there. Have you tried playing sections along with recordings of some interpretations that you like? I did that with my mazurka for the recent chopin mazurka recital. I had no clue about how to do rubato and so tried playing along with some youtube recordings and it was really helpful because I never would have thought to do some things, even from listening to different recordings. It took playing along with others to grasp much of what was going on in the piece. So I think with more experience, the types of options the pros take in interpretation and touch will become available. Anyway, would love to hear more about what you are frustrated with with this piece. Maybe we can come up with some options for practice in this thread!

So everyone, what do you think about where to start for January? I am still visiting my mum who is ill, but I can do a bit of practice here. Maybe start from the beginning? I thought neuralfirings had a helpful breakdown on the blog. Can we repost it here?

My plans haven't changed, Valencia, so I'll be starting on M106 in April. If you want to have done M1-105 by then I'd start by getting familiar with M48-55.

How do you normally approach a piece? I understand you're not strong on analysis so what do you do to prepare yourself to learn a piece? And have you done any of that for this piece yet?

I know how I want it to sound, but my technique inhibits my musicality. Basically, I learned some of these sections when I had been playing piano for 6 months, and I rushed the tempo far too quickly, and pedaled too much. Some of the runs, ESPECIALLY the Scherzando section and what surrounds it, are just terrible. I can't reach every note without some leaping, and you can HEAR those leaps so distinctly, which ruins the music. I also overpedal. It's just a wreck all around, and I don't know how much patience I have to get it just right.

This is precisely why I have no interest in even trying this piece right now. I think it's easy to underestimate the technical difficulty when you're not yet terribly advanced so it looks like a massive note playing challenge--difficult but manageable with enough patience. But then you know enough to know what you don't know and realize that it simply can't be played until there's a technical facility under there that will render it playable in any kind of musical sense, and simply knowing enough to push the right buttons at the right time with a bit of expression is just not even in the right galaxy. But often, just understanding the difference between button pushing with a bit of expression and true advanced playing is a learning process in and of itself.

It seems as if there's this weird window in everybody's piano learning trajectory in which people entertain the thought of learning pieces like this one: those who are no longer beginners, have had a taste of playing sufficiently well and know they're not utterly unsuited to music and may in fact have some talent in it, but aren't really advanced enough yet to fully appreciate how vast the chasm is between the technical skills of an early intermediate player and those who have reached the highest levels of advanced playing.

For me, I'm often utterly struck by just how far I have to go. It seems the better I get, the further down the road virtuosity appears to be.

It's like struggling to climb a mountain in a dense forest. The forest ends and you think you've reached the peak only to find out you were simply still in the foothills and the mountain is yet ahead. Your eyes start to pan up and up and up and you get that sensation that the scope of things is just wholly different than you thought it was.

Of course, there's nothing to do then but keep climbing, but while there are plenty of pieces that are "playable" by mid intermediate on up (and they just simply sound better by those who play better) there are some (not a ton, but certainly some) that are off the grid in terms of difficulty level. The Ballades, in my view, are four of them. Gaspard, Rach 3 concerto, inter alia. That's just how it is.

Almost every part of the g minor Ballade requires a touch and control I won't have for a lot of years, and this technique is required even to make this sound tolerable. In other words, I know quite firmly that I lack the technique to play the piece as a musical whole with even minimal competence, almost no matter what I do or how hard I work at my current technical skill level. It would be a Bad Idea to attempt it when the only way in which I will feel I am making adequate progress is to be wrong and have failed to understand the piece at all.

I applaud Sam's effort. I really am impressed! But I also know what he's saying about really understanding the depth of the challenge now and I suspect the reason he feels the way he does now is that he really appreciates that in a fundamental way that he may not have before. I could be wrong, but that's my sense.

Which is good, I think. It actually shows technical progress to have come to the realization of how profoundly out of one's league one may be for now.

That's not to say there's never a time to attempt it. At the rate he is going, I have no doubt one day (and possibly quite soon) this piece will be in his grasp as a reasonable stretch piece, and I hope also to be ready for it one day. But for now I totally get what he's saying about hearing what a wreck it is now and doubting the patience to fix it at this particular technical level. I more than get that--I respect that, and think it actually shows someone further advanced than someone who thinks it's a surmountable challenge who isn't already clearly at least an early advanced pianist. I have no problem with stretching, but not beyond the snap point of the rope.

For example, neuralfirings reached a much higher advanced level before quitting. I think this piece is a perfect challenge at this point in time for her. Is her recording somewhat rough in places? Sure, but also you can hear how solid the underlying technique is even after a lot of time not playing.

That ain't me. And that's true even if your average non-musician would be plenty impressed by my playing. I know what's missing, and that's just how it is for now.

Anyhoo, I am kind of just talking out loud. I really don't know if the original poster has a "highest prior attained level" like neuralfirings or not. And I don't want to rain on anybody's parade. But with so much out there that is both challenging, beautiful and more likely to get you to the skills necessary to play the Ballade faster than the Ballade itself, I just can't really wrap my head around a scenario that makes attempting the Ballade reasonable by anybody other than a truly early advanced pianist.

Best case scenario, you play it downtempo, lacking the finesse necessary to take it to speed, and end up with a final product that is rough and unmusical due to insurmountable elements of it, and then you to have to unlearn it when you have the technical chops to tackle it properly.

I can't tell you how many pieces I wish I hadn't played badly as a kid. Half the battle is unlearning them, frankly.

Ugh what a downer I sound like. But I'm actually pretty optimistic in general--both of myself and Sam and neuralfirings and anybody who is working hard and has good solid progress. I really feel like one day I will be ready for this piece. 2014 is not that year.

Good luck. I really, really mean it. For you and anybody else trying. We all have to be inspired and I can't say it's wrong to be inspired by something as lovely as the g minor ballade.

We should all be so blessed to play it!

Very wise post, Two Snowflakes. The combination "adult beginner" and "studying Chopin's Ballade" always sounded to me like an oxymoron.

San Rose, if you can do that after just 2 years, all I can say is WOW. Every year will make a difference and you will have plenty of them! I am struggling with Nocturne op27 no2 which I love and after 6 month realize it's going to take me a while, and that's starting at 63 yeas young. But if WE don't try to play this stuff, it's just black and white blobs on a page and others will be none the wiser. It's a passion and you have to acknowledge it for your own self satisfaction if nothing else. Keep going , you know it's worth it. There's lots more of us out here doing the very same thing, giving life to those notes because we love them.