Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum DIY upright bridge repair + restring

Keep in mind, it is not always necessary to replace the bass strings when doing this type of repair.

After further deliberation, I don't think I'm going to repair this piano. My primary issue is that I'm not 100% sure all the problems stem from the broken bridge. I don't want to open it up and find a plethora of other issues that were not easily noticeable. There is a significant amount of buzzing throughout most of the range, so I'm thinking there might be a crack somewhere else I can't easily see.

I do appreciate the help you folks gave, and hopefully in the future I can try my hand at piano repair with something a bit easier to tackle, that is also of better quality in the first place.

Joey,
Good plan NOT to pursue this. It's fairly common knwoledge that UNLESS it's a Steinway(or similar quality piano), it makes no sense to throw money into an old upright.

Don't get me wrong, if it was in better condition I wouldn't mind doing the work. It does have sentimental value, but it just seemed that there was a lot wrong with this one, and potentially even more...and the fact that it's not a great piano kind of put the last nail in the coffin.

Hopefully I can find another decent piano for super cheap later on, I actually wouldn't mind tearing into a piano and fixing it up. Sounds like a good project.

Ah! Too bad! if as you claim you have repaired engines you would have found a piano a walk-over.
Also better to start on some thing that is not worth much because it would not matter if you made a few mistakes along the way.

Yeah, but when I built the engines I had a killer powerplant for a '68 Camaro. With this...I'm just not convinced that I'll end up with a "good" piano. I don't want to drop a ton of money and end up with a "alright" piano. I already have a decent upright.

Point taken, if you you already have a piano then fixing another will waste time you should using to practice - don't I know!

Joey - I just read through this thread, and I'm curious. Does your Starck upright look anything like this model?:

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I've had two identical Starck uprights in my shop. Both had this detail on the front corner of the case:

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These pianos were both beauties - great to play. Obviously, yours has issues, but if it's this particular piano, I can tell you that it would be worth it to at least give it a go. I would recommend the method that Mark Cerisano described near the beginning of the thread, with one modification. There's no reason (as far as the bridge repair is concerned) to completely remove the bass strings as Mark describes. Loosen them starting with the upper string to the point where they can be taken off the hitch pins at the bottom of the strings, and thread the loops (in order again) through a 18" or so long copper wire. Bind them up once they're all removed, and pull them out of the way, using the excess copper wire to attach them to a strut.

Here's a look at the method I use with epoxy in repairing bridges. Frank Baxter's detailed description looks to be very doable as well, although I myself have never tried CA glue for this type of repair.

Good luck, whatever you decide. Don't be discouraged when folks tell you that old uprights aren't worth the time or effort to bring them back to life. Many of these instruments are very much worth saving. Chuck Behm

Chuck, what kind of epoxy do you use in this type
of repair? Any kind of two part epoxy you can
get at Home Depot? JB Weld? Or some other
specific brand?

Thanks.

I believe it is console size. Definitely not like that.

Hi Paul - I use J.B.Weld, although probably any paste type epoxy with a fast curing time would work well.

Joey - I haven't had a Starck console in the shop, but have had a spinet that was nice. From what I've seen, they made quality pianos:

[img:center][/img]

One thing to say about the epoxy repair is that your costs are negligible, especially if you're going to retain the old bass strings. You might see if your technician would part with a small quantity of DAG, to dress the top surface of the bridge once the repair was completed. Chuck

Joey and all -- o.k. I was guessing it was a small piano based on the laminate s.b. That is not a board I would want to pull the bridge off. If any of the bridge remains glued it is

likely to take a huge part of the top layer of the s.b. with it when you pull it off. I failed to note that you hadn't had your tuner look at the piano. That would be step one and it is only a few dollars to find out the overall condition of the piano. Some tuners apply a portion of .the estimate fee to work at a later (but not too later) point.

I think the buzzing you hear is the bridge glue joint failure. Bridge pins holding that amount of stagger in the wire are not likely making much noise -- poor weak tone and false beats, yes. Buzzes will be strongest in the bass, obvious on the tenor bridge over the s.b. ribs that connect to the bass bridge and detectable throughout due to harmonics. You could still only be dealing with a bass bridge problem.

I suggested a glue repair in place to save money (even sentiment has its limits).
Chuck -- yes I might use an epoxy putty to fill cracks after the ca glue, but the only thing that matters is to stabilize the pins and leave a relatively clean termination at the speaking side of the bridge. The strings should pull to pitch if done carefully on a piano from the 60's. If you are not so lucky you break bass strings and pull them all off and pack them up and send them to mapes for replacement. Your tuner can sell you a few pins leftover from his restringing to use. If he doesn't have any you need to be using a different tuner for this project. by the way -- nice piano chuck. I wish people understood just how good some of the old uprights could be.

You will pay your tuner for an estimate, pitch raise and tuning at best. That shouldn't be too much given the family connection. Even if you have to buy bass strings it would still be not totally unreasonable -- for sentimental reasons. It will never sell for even the price of pitch raise and tuning though if that is part of your sentiment.

It is an easy bridge to re-cap as it is straight without complicated notching if you want the woodworking project. I would still do it in place for all of the reasons mentioned.

Have the tuner out for an assessment and estimate then decide if sentiment stretches to the bottom line. It was never a good piano, but it could be a functional piece of your family history saved from the dump. best luck.

It does appear that its just the cracked cantilever vibrating, and there is also some loose time on top that didn't help. O also found that the dampers didn't work too well, still lots of sound after the key is released. They touch the strings, so is it more an adjustment issue, or new felt? I'll upload more pics later.

Pictures, as promised:

(also, it's certainly a spinet, after looking at it again today I really don't think it's console size)

(do these hammers look OK?)

Any thoughts on how those hammers look? It's hard to tell exactly how good/bad they sound when the the strings are so horribly out of tune. The piano does seem a little bright, but not bad (but again, hard to tell for sure).

Please let me know if I should start a new thread. This is my first post on this forum and I don't know if it's better start a new or tag onto an existing thread when I have the same problem.

A little background first, I have a 1923 Gulbransen player piano that I've been reconditioning/restoring.



I know the finished resale value doesn't warrant the time and money I'll put into it, and I'm okay with that. I'm getting pleasure out of doing this. The craftmanship and materials that went into this piano are amazing! I do blacksmithing & welding and get immense satisfaction using tools and things I've personally made. I've also restored older cars and trucks, my daily driver is an early '55 Chevy 1/2 ton truck which I did a frame off. That said my background is metal working & mechanics, not wood working so this will be an educational, fun challenge. I do have a very skilled experienced wood working friend with a shop to lean on.

When I got the piano, only 3-4 keys played because the bridle straps were broken and most of the jacks were jammed under the hammer butts. Once the action was removed I was able to strum the strings individually and tell that it has a nice sound and progression. While the sound board has cracks I haven't heard any buzzing when testing any of the strings. All the treble bridges appear to be in good shape. A few small hairline cracks around those bridge pins, but none of them extended to neighboring pins.

The bass bridge is a different story, there's a long crack that goes along at least 3/4's of the upper pins.







While I never heard any buzzing from the bass strings, I don't know if it's tunable either. The bridge pins do appear to be stable for the time being but who knows when you try to tune it and start actually playing it. I assume without attention they'll get worse over time.

I have a copy of Arthur Reblitz's book and have found it an exceptional resource, but still have questions. First, can I unstring all of the bass strings without completely unstringing the piano? Last thing I want to do is crack the plate. I'd leave each string still attached to the tuning pin, but pulled out of the way. If so is there an order to loosening the tension on the bass strings and how much should you loosen at each step. I know from doing engine work you loosen and tighten head bolts in an order in a 3 step process. Arthur's book describes the process for the entire piano, but doesn't say if you could do just the bass section.

My wood working friend has offered to help build a new bass bridge. When considering replacement vs. recapping an advantage he said it might be good to have the old one as a future template in case something goes wrong. Creating a new one would seem easier as you can do any routing & drilling holes externally, setting the angle on a drill press vs. a hand drill.

Can the replacement of the bass bridge and repair of a cracked apron be done with the piano vertical? I eventually plan on laying the piano on it's back to do a CA treatment on the pinblock, (treble pins takes about 50" lbs to loosen, bass pins more like 20) I am hoping to avoid laying it over, because of limited space unless it's just for a couple of days. With young kids, a few days would be fine, more than that odds are something would get damaged either by them or me.

Lastly, does anyone have a link or documentation on re-dagging a bridge? Thank you for taking the time to read this, please let me know anything I've forgotten.

Dan

Yes, you could remove the bass bridge with the piano vertical. After you have removed the rest of the strings, it should unscrew from the back of the soundboard, so leaving it vertical would be the easiest way to do it. It is a simple bridge to make, so it should be no problem for your friend.

Since you have to replace the bass strings and bridge anyway, you might consider removing the cantilever and giving more backscale to the bass, as Del Fandrich has spoken about. It would change the strings somewhat, but if you are replacing them anyway, the maker should be able to account for that.

Thank you for your response. I'm finding the following interview with Del Fandrich here very interesting and worth consideration. http://pianopricepoint.com/piano-blog/

I'm sorry if this is a dumb question but do I need to unstring the entire piano using the method described in Reblitz's book, at least reduce the tension on all strings or is it safe for the piano (plate & soundboard) to evenly reduce the tension on the bass strings in steps and then remove them (still attached to the tuning pins)?

A lazy person would cut the actual bridge top thinner, and reinstall the pins farther. There is room for that. Old holes/cracks being closed and secured with epoxy or just glue.

The apron is extreme on that piano. It add a lot of suppleness to the bridge,(unfortunately the pressure is almost in grain direction) that mean lowers the power but with so long strings it can be an advantage.

Smaller aprons are cut to lower rigidity, usually.
Curved shaped bridges add stability.

I think you should restring the entire piano. New strings are one of the biggest improvements you can make to an old piano. Besides, it is good practice.

If you would like to try your hand at rescaling the treble, you can use my spreadsheet template.