Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
69 registered members (AZNpiano, AnthonyPaulO, alexk3954, agraffe, atcsam, ASR, 36251, astrotoy, 18 invisible), 929 guests, and 4 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Key action feel terminology and description for DP [Re: Daniel Richter] #2197021
12/13/13 01:38 PM
12/13/13 01:38 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,337
M
maurus Offline
1000 Post Club Member
maurus  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,337
Originally Posted by Daniel Richter
This forum and many other places already been talking about this things for many years. Is about time someone make a "dictionary" about it, to standardize terms. Don't you think?


Allow me to remain unconvinced. The endless talk about these things proves, in my view, that language is not sufficient to convey in a transparent, intersubjectively understood fashion what is going on. I've seen the very same actions been described as 'heavy' or 'light', etc.

(ad) ROLAND

Click Here

Re: Key action feel terminology and description for DP [Re: Daniel Richter] #2197043
12/13/13 02:14 PM
12/13/13 02:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 744
Denton Texas
LesCharles73 Offline
500 Post Club Member
LesCharles73  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 744
Denton Texas
This one probably doesn't need to be added to the list since it isn't a DP, but I've heard harpsicords be described as "crunchy".


Les C Deal




Re: Key action feel terminology and description for DP [Re: LesCharles73] #2197078
12/13/13 03:15 PM
12/13/13 03:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 239
Venezuela
Daniel Richter Offline OP
Full Member
Daniel Richter  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 239
Venezuela
crunchy? That is a new one for me. Maybe because I am not familiar with harpsichords.


Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100
Re: Key action feel terminology and description for DP [Re: Daniel Richter] #2197099
12/13/13 04:00 PM
12/13/13 04:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by Daniel Richter
Confirm if you are sure about that. If you are, then is clear both types exist.

If you look at the pictures on my DPs Exposed! thread you'll see lots of "hammers" that aren't fully constrained by the keys. I think leaving the "hammer" free to do what it wants to do is more like a real piano action. Also, most sensors seem to be actuated by the "hammer" rather the key.

Other than measuring down weight and perhaps fulcrum distance, key "feel" is a fairly subjective thing. I'm sure it could be objectively characterized fairly simply, at least to a first order, but without "hammer" mass and lever ratios you're wandering around in the land of conjecture. That's why most "key feel" threads pretty much go nowhere and we always advise people to try before they buy.

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Key action feel terminology and description for DP [Re: Daniel Richter] #2197136
12/13/13 05:17 PM
12/13/13 05:17 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,540
US
G
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member
gvfarns  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
G

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,540
US
I'd suggest that "weight" be separated into three subitems:

1. Upweight -- the amount of force necessary to initiate movement when the key is completely up. Pianos with high upweight and low overall weight can feel crisp and in the extreme, be difficult to control.

2. Downweight -- how much the key pushes back when it is in the completely down position

3. Dyanmic weight -- related to how much inertia is in the hammer/key. A given key could be balanced so that the up and downweights are almost nothing but have a lot of mass. So if you play a loud note it requires a ton of force, while playing something slow/light will require less force.


The other important and omitted characteristic is key length, which governs the ratio of how hard a key is to press at the very front vs at the back. This is related to how far it is to the fulcrum or pivot point of the key lever (not the hammer).

Last edited by gvfarns; 12/13/13 05:21 PM.
Re: Key action feel terminology and description for DP [Re: gvfarns] #2197292
12/14/13 12:28 AM
12/14/13 12:28 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 239
Venezuela
Daniel Richter Offline OP
Full Member
Daniel Richter  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 239
Venezuela
Thanks gvfarns. I will see how add that. Maybe too specific issue because people overall just say "feels heavier or lighter", but I will still see how add that.

Reply to dewster: Maybe you are right. I don't know. Maybe my ES100 have the hammers lose and "my test" is not really accurate. Is subjective, unless I open my ES100 and see the action my self (I will not do that, unless is for repairing something).

Since I overall don't have much experience in this subject, and you have a lot more experience, I will take your word for it. Even if would be exceptions with keys constraining the hammers, I suppose most don't. The animation should show what most do. Will edit that as you mention.

Thanks you two for the help.


Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100
Re: Key action feel terminology and description for DP [Re: Daniel Richter] #2197307
12/14/13 01:39 AM
12/14/13 01:39 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by Daniel Richter
Is subjective, unless I open my ES100 and see the action my self (I will not do that, unless is for repairing something).

Come on man, get a screwdriver, crack that baby open, and post some naked pictures!

It'll be just among us friends, no one else will ever know. wink

Re: Key action feel terminology and description for DP [Re: dewster] #2197371
12/14/13 08:21 AM
12/14/13 08:21 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 239
Venezuela
Daniel Richter Offline OP
Full Member
Daniel Richter  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 239
Venezuela
lol. Yeah right. wink

My DP is new. I don't want to mess with it. I often damage things I disassemble (call me clumsy).

If in a few years from now I have wear problems with the DP, and warranty period ends, I definitely will give you all the "naked" pictures of the Kawai ES100 you can want.


Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100
Re: Key action feel terminology and description for DP [Re: Daniel Richter] #2197444
12/14/13 12:20 PM
12/14/13 12:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,540
US
G
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member
gvfarns  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
G

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,540
US
Originally Posted by Daniel Richter
and warranty period ends


This is the relevant issue, I'd say. These manufacturers are pretty good at honoring their warranty meaningfully, so there's actually some value in it.

Re: Key action feel terminology and description for DP [Re: Daniel Richter] #2197449
12/14/13 12:31 PM
12/14/13 12:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,425
Vught, The Netherlands
Dave Horne Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Dave Horne  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,425
Vught, The Netherlands
... organic ... smile


website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
Re: Key action feel terminology and description for DP [Re: gvfarns] #2197479
12/14/13 01:22 PM
12/14/13 01:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by gvfarns
Originally Posted by Daniel Richter
and warranty period ends

This is the relevant issue, I'd say. These manufacturers are pretty good at honoring their warranty meaningfully, so there's actually some value in it.

I just looked at the ES100 US warranty - it reads much the same as Yamaha's warranty, which doesn't seem to explicitly disallow a simple opening up and buttoning back up. Of the few DPs I've opened up I haven't seen any tamper tell-tales in there (decals or stickers that get torn, etc.).

Of course, if one feels nervous about doing such things I'd recommend against it.

Re: Key action feel terminology and description for DP [Re: dewster] #2197485
12/14/13 01:27 PM
12/14/13 01:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 239
Venezuela
Daniel Richter Offline OP
Full Member
Daniel Richter  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 239
Venezuela
Main reason is that I don't want to risk damaging something that works perfectly. There is always some risk on disassembling devices like this.


Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Shop Our Online Store!
Shop Our Store Online
Shop PianoSupplies.com

Did you know Piano World has an online store, and that it's loaded with goodies pianists and music lovers want?
Check it out and place your order.

Special Purchase!
Keyboard and Roses Piano Bench Cushion Keyboard & Roses 14"x30" piano bench cushions Regularly sold for $79 to $100, now only $39. (while supplies last)

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Ornament Accidental Changes for the Bar?
by abrogard. 03/23/19 08:01 PM
DP for someone how does not seem to want a DP
by Markuska. 03/23/19 07:29 PM
Steinway vs. Clavinova?
by Munn14464. 03/23/19 06:48 PM
Were my HD599s defective?
by peterws. 03/23/19 06:03 PM
learning to play with any other music than classical
by Stef London. 03/23/19 05:53 PM
What's Hot!!
PIANO TEACHERS Please read this!
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics191,090
Posts2,810,087
Members92,859
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

Sweetwater

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2