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Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Jolly] #2197068
12/13/13 03:00 PM
12/13/13 03:00 PM
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Quote
I also imagine that the official wholesale prices may actually be higher than what some/many dealers pay either because of volume, some special deal, or seasonal specials.


Absolutely.

I recently spoke with a dealer who handles the new Webers. By doing a one-time volume buy, Young Chang had given him a pretty good discount off of everyday wholesale.


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Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: BornInTheUSA] #2197109
12/13/13 04:32 PM
12/13/13 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelh
How does PIanoBuyer have all the wholesale prices? I also imagine that the official wholesale prices may actually be higher than what some/many dealers pay either because of volume, some special deal, or seasonal specials.

I suspect that there's "wiggle" room in the wholesale prices especially from Chinese companies but probably with many of them to varying degrees. So if the SMP is based on a wholesale price that may not be completely reliable, then perhaps the discount range should be much wider.
You're looking for some perfect system and there is none. But the PB is the best and only source, as far as I know, that is accurate and up to date. The PB and its pricing methodology is meant to give a reasonable ball park figure for an actual sale price.

I'd assume that the wholesale price dealers pay isn't fixed in stone, but probably no one on the planet is more aware of things like that and a myriad of other considerations than the Piano Buyer's author. As Fine very carefully explains in the PB there are numerous factors(and the actual wholesale price a particular dealer pays is one of them) that affect sale price.

Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Jolly] #2197120
12/13/13 04:49 PM
12/13/13 04:49 PM
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That's what's a bit weird for me: In the US there is even less price transparency then here.
Over here some dealers (or Thomann from Germany) put prices on the web for which you can buy piano and have an OK deal. Maybe not the best deal but at least it's something. In the US you have MSRP and that's it. The SMP seems like a nice help for that issue..

Last edited by wimpiano; 12/13/13 04:54 PM.
Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Jolly] #2197165
12/13/13 05:58 PM
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Another question. I know Cunningham pianos are only sold at that one store in PA. Does he plan on distributing them to other dealers or is it just a "store brand?" It reminds me of Sherman Clay's store brands, one named Sherman Clay and then later Henry F. Miller.

Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Jolly] #2197245
12/13/13 10:07 PM
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AFAIK, the only other dealer is in Los Angeles. There has been talk about setting up a small dealer network, but I don't have a clue about the outcome of those meetings.


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Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Jolly] #2197262
12/13/13 10:52 PM
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If Mike Carr is supposed to be the last bastion of defence for Japanese pianos in same/similar price range like Cunninghams et al, he doing a pretty miserable job.

In fact I would quickly try to think up an entirely different line of arguments.

In that case one could always throw the new main battle tanks of Chinese made Baldwin pianos in - all equipped with solid soundboards...

Norbert grin thumb

Last edited by Norbert; 12/13/13 10:55 PM.

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Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Norbert] #2197266
12/13/13 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Norbert
If Mike Carr is supposed to be the last bastion of defence for Japanese pianos in same/similar price range like Cunninghams et al, he doing a pretty miserable job.

In fact I would quickly try to think up an entirely different line of arguments.

In that case one could always throw the new main battle tanks of Chinese made Baldwin pianos in - all equipped with solid soundboards...

Norbert grin thumb



Great. Another country heard from. Do have a point, Norbert, or simply spamming your eventual debut as Baldwin dealer? I'm not going to ask if you have anything intelligent to say.

Mike


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Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Mike Carr] #2197286
12/14/13 12:08 AM
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Jolly,

Quote
First off, let me publicly state, that if you want a level of concern and service, second to nobody in the industry, I recommend Rich and the folks at Cunningham Piano Company. First class. Period. Rich probably deserves combat pay after dealing with me . . . If I would have had her in the Cunningham store, I would had them lighten the action and possibly iron the hammmers just a tad. We might have had a different outcome. Which is the beauty of working with a store like Cunningham's...A full service store with great techs in the building can accommodate requests like that.


Seems you know your way around Cunningham's. Just out of curiosity how much time have you spent there?



Quote
That's what the Cunningham rim is made of and it's a thicker rim than anything I've seen in its class, or in the RX or C series. . . . For comparative shopping purposes I would shop the Cunningham vs. the RX2. . . . It does not compare against the GM Kawais or the GC Yamaha, that's obvious.


Have you ever played these pianos together in the same room or are you basing your opinions on the width of the rims?


Mike


smoke 'em if you got 'em
Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: pianoloverus] #2197323
12/14/13 03:13 AM
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Pianoloverus,

While I understand your comments about "arbitrary", my usage was more at discretion and will than caprice. Likewise, manufacturers have some purpose behind their figures, some reasoning, but as to whether they are more or less defined than Larry's is anybody's guess.

I will say that manufacturers are more interested in displaying an astonishing deal from an inflated MSRP after discount while Larry is more interested in uniformity. In any case, "somewhat arbitrary" might sound better. Even Larry might agree.

I don’t have any problem with either MSRP or SMP, as long as nobody asks me to take them too seriously. However, I’ve seen a few too many steeply discounted pianos recently to recommend you take 20 percent of SMP, waltz into the dealer, and lay your money down. They’ll take your money, of course, but you can often do better.

Mike


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Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Jolly] #2197345
12/14/13 05:24 AM
12/14/13 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Jolly
The Cunningham Matchless.
First off, let me publicly state, that if you want a level of concern and service, second to nobody in the industry, I recommend Rich and the folks at Cunningham Piano Company. First class. Period.

The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should.


Wow, perhaps Rich and Cunningham should be the dealer and piano of choice for all Americans that can access this incredible level of service and concern in the industry.
One of my local dealers tweaked and put his name on the current "Heintzman" brand. Perhaps a fine piano , but I'm not going to advertise it or him,
as matchless
or the piano I didn't buy
but you should.

Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Mike Carr] #2197353
12/14/13 06:08 AM
12/14/13 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Carr


Seems you know your way around Cunningham's. Just out of curiosity how much time have you spent there?




Have you ever played these pianos together in the same room or are you basing your opinions on the width of the rims?


Mike

And have you ever played Cunningham's? The question is still unanswered. If not then it sounds like a case of pot and a black kettle!

Last edited by LarryShone; 12/14/13 06:10 AM.

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Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Mike Carr] #2197372
12/14/13 08:30 AM
12/14/13 08:30 AM
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Louisiana
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Originally Posted by Mike Carr
Originally Posted by Norbert
If Mike Carr is supposed to be the last bastion of defence for Japanese pianos in same/similar price range like Cunninghams et al, he doing a pretty miserable job.

In fact I would quickly try to think up an entirely different line of arguments.

In that case one could always throw the new main battle tanks of Chinese made Baldwin pianos in - all equipped with solid soundboards...

Norbert grin thumb



Great. Another country heard from. Do have a point, Norbert, or simply spamming your eventual debut as Baldwin dealer? I'm not going to ask if you have anything intelligent to say.

Mike


He ain't spamming. You're trolling.

The new BP line of Baldwins (built by Parsons) stands on its own. While not the classic Baldwin tone, they are in the neighborhood and are among the most American sounDing of the Chinese pianos.

Hard rock maple rims, solid soundboards, etc....they have nice ingredients and the build quality is good.

Haven't seen the 5'10, but I've been through multiple 5'5" and 5'. The 5' is a heckuva piano for its size. definitely a short list piano.

Play one, and enjoy yourself.


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Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Dara] #2197374
12/14/13 08:36 AM
12/14/13 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Dara
Originally Posted by Jolly
The Cunningham Matchless.
First off, let me publicly state, that if you want a level of concern and service, second to nobody in the industry, I recommend Rich and the folks at Cunningham Piano Company. First class. Period.

The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should.


Wow, perhaps Rich and Cunningham should be the dealer and piano of choice for all Americans that can access this incredible level of service and concern in the industry.
One of my local dealers tweaked and put his name on the current "Heintzman" brand. Perhaps a fine piano , but I'm not going to advertise it or him,
as matchless
or the piano I didn't buy
but you should.


No, there are other good dealers across the country, but I said Cunningham is second to nobody. Having dealt with more dealers than I have fingers and toes, I can separate good from very good to best.

Cunningham has been talked about on Piano Boards since the days of Usenet. Find me one post from a disgruntled shopper talking about his bad experience with the company.

That, taken by itself, is a very powerful endorsement.

EDIT: And, you need to wipe a little egg of of your face...the name of the piano is the Cunningham Matchless. It's name is rooted in the history of the Cunningham Piano Company, and I invite you to read about it.

Last edited by Jolly; 12/14/13 09:37 AM.

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Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Mike Carr] #2197386
12/14/13 09:32 AM
12/14/13 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Carr
Pianoloverus,

While I understand your comments about "arbitrary", my usage was more at discretion and will than caprice. Likewise, manufacturers have some purpose behind their figures, some reasoning, but as to whether they are more or less defined than Larry's is anybody's guess.

I will say that manufacturers are more interested in displaying an astonishing deal from an inflated MSRP after discount while Larry is more interested in uniformity. In any case, "somewhat arbitrary" might sound better. Even Larry might agree.

I don’t have any problem with either MSRP or SMP, as long as nobody asks me to take them too seriously. However, I’ve seen a few too many steeply discounted pianos recently to recommend you take 20 percent of SMP, waltz into the dealer, and lay your money down. They’ll take your money, of course, but you can often do better.
The whole point of the SMP is that it is based on a uniform markup formula with the wholesale price as the starting point. Therefore it levels the playing field in terms of evaluating price.

The MSRP is irrelevant and useless for a potential customer. It can be whatever the maker wants and I assume, for those who choose to inflate it, it's the largest number they think will not scare too many buyers away while still give the buyer the false impression they are getting a big discount. The MSRP should IMO not be taken at all seriously but the SMP, while not perfect, should be taken far more seriously.

As far as your recommendation of 20% off the SMP as being possibly bad for the buyer, it could be but for starters the suggested discount is 10-30%. Most buyers also have enough sense to realize that the present economic conditions and myriad of factors(which Fine discusses)might allow for an even larger discount than suggested in the PB. Or if they don't realize this they will if they read the PB's section on pricing.

The PB cannot and, I think, should not change its formula based on the economic climate of the moment or any of the other many factors that might require adjustments to the SMP or its discount range for a particular situation. The only real way to get maximum benefit from the SMP approach is to carefully read Fine's explanation on pricing which explains everything far more clearly than I have done.

Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: pianoloverus] #2197387
12/14/13 09:35 AM
12/14/13 09:35 AM
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Last edited by pianoloverus; 12/14/13 02:54 PM.
Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Jolly] #2197421
12/14/13 11:25 AM
12/14/13 11:25 AM
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Seeing all the talks here I got really curious as how good the Cunningham piano really is, I really hope that we can have good quality pianos in a more affordable price range…
So yesterday I called my old college mate who lives in Philly now to try the Cunningham pianos for me and give me some idea as what they are like. Surprisingly, he said he had tried them already while he was shopping for his current piano(He has a Yamaha GC1 now). According to him, the action is little too heavy for him, and they sound like “mellower sounding Samick” which he did not like. However, he did say the Cunningham pianos are the best looking pianos he has ever seen in the price range.

I guess people simply have different preference. I have never played a Samick, so I still have no idea what the Cunningham sounds like. I should give them a try if I visit philly!

Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Jolly] #2197422
12/14/13 11:25 AM
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Friends:

On the matter of brother Rich, Cunningham Piano Co. and the "Matchless" Cunningham:

to repeat and to repeat again, one has only to visit the concern in question, meet Rich, and play the piano - Chinese origin, engineered soundboard and "Matchless" moniker notwithstanding.

One has to ask just why this simple truth should provoke such animus. Can it be that there is simply no faking Rich's genuine goodness, the standard that his shop achieves or the success of this new, affordable import ?

Faced with an approach or sales philosophy quite at variance, I suppose the typical, dark reaction would be to attack the good, the innocent and the true.

To quote Cosmo Castorini, "that's a sad and crazy day."

Karl Watson
Staten Island, NY

Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Jolly] #2197429
12/14/13 11:43 AM
12/14/13 11:43 AM
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Karl and All,

It seems to boil down to one contrarian who enjoys stirring the pot when he has never tasted the stew or has any interest in the resulting flavor.


Marty in Minnesota

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Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Jolly] #2197442
12/14/13 12:16 PM
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I agree with Minnesota Marty.

I would also like to add here that I personally have played numerous Cunningham grands of all sizes. I have also heard talented and educated pianists (among whom I am not) play them, from astonishing youngsters through adults.

They are great, and unsurpassed at their price point, at least in my opinion, although it is clear that this opinion is shared by an ever growing number of people who have actually tried them out.

Rich Galassini is also unsurpassed as a salesperson and as an advocate for the piano generally, and I have dealt with a LOT of them. And that is obviously not just my opinion--it is an opinion shared throughout Piano World. I bought my first piano from Rich some 15-20 years ago, and we are still in contact, and I continue to receive invitations to the concerts that Cunningham sponsors. I attend whenever I can, as they are great. The most recent one starred an incredible Steinway concert grand and a group of Temple music students. If sponsoring concerts like this is self-promotion, we all need more of it!

These views are all based on personal experience. I am posting this here and now because Rich, like most dealers who post here, has very sensibly stayed out of this particular thread.




Last edited by Rank Piano Amateur; 12/14/13 12:18 PM.
Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Orz] #2197462
12/14/13 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Orz
Seeing all the talks here I got really curious as how good the Cunningham piano really is, I really hope that we can have good quality pianos in a more affordable price range…
So yesterday I called my old college mate who lives in Philly now to try the Cunningham pianos for me and give me some idea as what they are like. Surprisingly, he said he had tried them already while he was shopping for his current piano(He has a Yamaha GC1 now). According to him, the action is little too heavy for him, and they sound like “mellower sounding Samick” which he did not like. However, he did say the Cunningham pianos are the best looking pianos he has ever seen in the price range.

I guess people simply have different preference. I have never played a Samick, so I still have no idea what the Cunningham sounds like. I should give them a try if I visit philly!


The action can be lightened, if you wish. The tone? yes, it is a mellow tone and you may not like it. If you do, though, it will be hard for you to find anything as well built for the money. Many people think they are a Hailun stencil, when that is just not the case. They are their own unique piano.

By all means, do try them and form your own opinion.


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