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The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. #2196265
12/11/13 08:56 PM
12/11/13 08:56 PM
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Louisiana
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The Cunningham Matchless.

First off, let me publicly state, that if you want a level of concern and service, second to nobody in the industry, I recommend Rich and the folks at Cunningham Piano Company. First class. Period. Rich probably deserves combat pay after dealing with me. whome

Back to the 5'10" Cunningham...In build quality, this is the Mason & Hamlin of Asian-sourced pianos. The rim is thicker (yeah, I brought a tape measure) and all maple. The plate is the most massive of any piano in its class. The bracing is well done and the joints are flawless. The soundboard is not going to crack or compression crown. The finish on the piano I saw was well executed.

The bass is good. The break is extremely well done. The tone is not anything like the Hailun piano of the same size. It's darker, much softer and maybe more controllable. This is NOTa Hailun stencil, this piano stands on its own.

So, Jolly, why didn't you buy the piano? Well guys, I'm not the main player, the wife is...And, as many of you know, she doesn't have as much power in her hands as in her youth, before time and disease take their toll. She just couldn't get the power she wanted out of the Cunningham, with what she had to put in it. She also found the tone a bit too mellow for her taste. She actually liked the tone of the Hailun vs. the Cunningham.

Having said that, I didn't buy a Hailun, either. In fact, I didn't even buy a grand. But I digress...

Here's what I'd like to leave you with, in this thread: If you are shopping for an extremely well-built, affordable grand with a nice, warm tone, you are doing yourself a disservice by not giving the Cunningham grand a look. I drove 325 miles to look at one and if you are seriously shopping, I'd advise you to put forth some effort to test drive one, too. It's not like anything else - it's a unique voice. It's a Cunningham.

A piano that may just be your cup o' tea.


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Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Jolly] #2196459
12/12/13 10:05 AM
12/12/13 10:05 AM
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Jolly and friends:

Not that the above requires a second, but I have to say that the thoughts expressed are certainly not over the top. That Cunningham 5'10" is a real piano and would be more than satisfactory, at least at home, for the large majority of us. It's a real piano with colour, sustain and beauty at a price that is quite unbelievable.

It seems quite different from any other piano I've played in that price range.

Karl Watson
Staten Island, NY

Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Jolly] #2196473
12/12/13 10:45 AM
12/12/13 10:45 AM
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Rochester MN
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As many of you know, I am quite taken with the Cunningham Parlour Grand (5'-10"). This piano was the very first model I played of the Cunningham line when I visited the store. It defies its low price, and competes with anything in its size, or even larger. The whole line of Cunningham pianos deserve the reputation they are gaining.

I'm curious if there is now a dealer of the Cunninghams in the DFW area, or was it a private sale?

Come on Jolly, give us some more info!


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Jolly] #2196534
12/12/13 01:32 PM
12/12/13 01:32 PM
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The piano was in a private individual's home. It was the closest Cunningham 5'10" available to the wife and I to test drive.

After Rich arranged the try-out, the lady of the home was gracious enough to allow us to try her piano, even though her home, street and trees were still covered with ice.

Since my wife is the principal player, the piano must suit her, not me. As I've said before, arthritis has robbed her of a lot of the power in her hands. When you couple that, with the type of music she likes to play - Southern Gospel, hymns, old-time country & pop - she just felt the Cunningham action was too heavy for her. Tone-wise, she wanted just a bit more "pop" (for lack of a better term)in the midrange. Nice bass, though.

If I would have had her in the Cunningham store, I would had them lighten the action and possibly iron the hammmers just a tad. We might have had a different outcome. Which is the beauty of working with a store like Cunningham's...A full service store with great techs in the building can accommodate requests like that.

Again, as stated before, there's no way I'm getting her on an airplane, except in a casket. Sadly. frown

IMO, I think the piano lends itself a bit more to classical, with an emphasis on melodic individual fingering vs.chording and runs. I also think the piano has more than one gear and can be "driven", which is something the wife can simply no longer do.

Lastly, most of my part when we look at pianos revolves around how the piano is built...the Cunningham is a very solid piano...This is not going to just be a twenty-year, throw-a-way instrument. It is thicker and it is beefier than anything in its class.

It simply is a good piano.


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Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Jolly] #2196573
12/12/13 03:31 PM
12/12/13 03:31 PM
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So how much do they go for, roughly? MSRP is 20,190, so maybe $13-14K?

I know some dealers don't like us to get too specific on pricing, but I actually think for these better Chinese pianos it would help them be more specific on how good the pricing is.

Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: BornInTheUSA] #2196608
12/12/13 05:08 PM
12/12/13 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelh
So how much do they go for, roughly? MSRP is 20,190, so maybe $13-14K?

I know some dealers don't like us to get too specific on pricing, but I actually think for these better Chinese pianos it would help them be more specific on how good the pricing is.


I promised Rich not to divulge pricing, but it's definitely south of $20K.

I know you like Kawai grands. For comparative shopping purposes I would shop the Cunningham vs. the RX2 (or its current model).


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Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: BornInTheUSA] #2196702
12/12/13 09:01 PM
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Quote
So how much do they go for, roughly? MSRP is 20,190, so maybe $13-14K?


Chinese pianos with plywood soundboards generally sell for 30 to 50 percent of Japanese artist grade. Over reliance on MSRP or SMP, both arbitrary figures, tends to misrepresent market trends, especially those of an immediate nature, while giving the buyer a confidence that is not only unearned but unrealistic.

Chinese piano companies and their container agents, in an effort to match the brand authenticity of Japanese pianos, tend to rely on shake and bake marketing schemes, mostly centering around the revival of defunct brand names with Germanic or American shading.

In an effort to distance themselves from the superficial heritage of their own brands, Chinese marketers often hire old men who once worked for these defunct companies, looking remarkably clean and well kempt (as if the family has decided to send them into town for a quart of milk), in thoughtful poses, usually poised over a piano frame or soundboard, chisel or hammer in hand (some seem uncertain as to what it is they are doing), while wondering how soon they can cash their next check.

Mike


smoke 'em if you got 'em
Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Jolly] #2196704
12/12/13 09:06 PM
12/12/13 09:06 PM
Joined: May 2012
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Rochester MN
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Mr. Carr,

Have you ever played a Cunningham or do you even know of them?

You're speculation on the construction techniques employed in the manufacture of these instruments shows your total ignorance of the reality.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2196709
12/12/13 09:30 PM
12/12/13 09:30 PM
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MM,

Are you saying that a Chinese piano with a plywood soundboard is not a realistic description (although lacking adornment), or simply too stark for your, er, sentiments?

Mike

Last edited by Mike Carr; 12/13/13 12:29 AM. Reason: corrected spelling for schoolmarm

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Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Mike Carr] #2196710
12/12/13 09:38 PM
12/12/13 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Carr
[quote] Over reliance on MSRP or SMP, both arbitrary figures, tends to misrepresent market trends, especially those of an immediate nature, while giving the buyer a confidence that is not only unearned but unrealistic.
The MSRP could be called arbitrary but that is definitely not the case for the SMP. This is precisely why the SMP is useful and the MSRP is not. The SMP, together with the suggested range of discounts to be expected, is not perfect but still the best way to get a handle on a reasonable sale price.

One should not expect the SMP or suggested discounts from SMP to be adjusted for the latest economic situation or for each area of the country.

Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Jolly] #2196714
12/12/13 09:51 PM
12/12/13 09:51 PM
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Mr. Carr,

I'm not sure what "setiments" are, but your reference is hubristically unaware.

You seem to be blathering on about a piano of which you have no knowledge. This thread is not about Chinese pianos in general, albeit skewed, it is about a specific brand.

You might become more enlightened if you would start reading at the beginning of the thread.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2196717
12/12/13 10:08 PM
12/12/13 10:08 PM
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A Chinese piano with a plywood soundboard.

True statement or not.

Mike


smoke 'em if you got 'em
Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Jolly] #2196718
12/12/13 10:13 PM
12/12/13 10:13 PM
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Rochester MN
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Carr

I don't really know, and we would need to ask Rich or Tim. I sincerely doubt that it is, but if that is the case, it is done without any detriment to the sound of the piano.

Have you played one or not?


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Mike Carr] #2196720
12/12/13 10:16 PM
12/12/13 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Carr
Quote
So how much do they go for, roughly? MSRP is 20,190, so maybe $13-14K?


Chinese pianos with plywood soundboards generally sell for 30 to 50 percent of Japanese artist grade. Over reliance on MSRP or SMP, both arbitrary figures, tends to misrepresent market trends, especially those of an immediate nature, while giving the buyer a confidence that is not only unearned but unrealistic.

Chinese piano companies and their container agents, in an effort to match the brand authenticity of Japanese pianos, tend to rely on shake and bake marketing schemes, mostly centering around the revival of defunct brand names with Germanic or American shading.

In an effort to distance themselves from the superficial heritage of their own brands, Chinese marketers often hire old men who once worked for these defunct companies, looking remarkably clean and well kempt (as if the family has decided to send them into town for a quart of milk), in thoughtful poses, usually poised over a piano frame or soundboard, chisel or hammer in hand (some seem uncertain as to what it is they are doing), while wondering how soon they can cash their next check.

Mike


Brother, I think you smoked one too many.

Before you sling around derogatory terms like plywood, why don't you actually play the piano in question, and tell us how good, or how bad this kind of "plywood" can sound?

Before you denigrate folks like Emerson, why don't you play the pianos he has helped designed?

Play the Cunningham, and tell us what you think and what you would compare it against. It does not compare against the GM Kawais or the GC Yamaha, that's obvious.

I challenge you to compare it directly against a Yamaha C or a Kawai RX, made within the last few years. Look at the build quality and materials used. Play the Cunningham and tell me why you would pay more for the Japanese pianos.

Rather than lobbing indiscriminate feces balls, play the Cunningham and give us a review...I'd like to hear your honest opinion.


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Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Mike Carr] #2196723
12/12/13 10:19 PM
12/12/13 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Carr
MM

A Chinese piano with a plywood soundboard.

True statement or not.

Mike


Not really.

The board does use a paper-thin laminate on top of a solid board...standard Hailun technology.

The term plywood conjures up visions of CDX sheathing. But you knew that already, didn't you?


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Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Mike Carr] #2196724
12/12/13 10:20 PM
12/12/13 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Carr
MM

A Chinese piano with a plywood soundboard.

True statement or not.

Mike


Lastly, have you played a Cunningham?

Yes, or no.


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Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Jolly] #2196740
12/12/13 11:00 PM
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I never said I played the Cunningham. I have played many Chinese pianos with plywood soundboards. They are priced between 30 and 50 percent of Japanese artist grands. It has nothing to do with your "honest" impression of them or how you personally view them. They simply do not have the brand authenticity to command a higher price. Simply stencilling the name Cunningham on a Hailun fallboard is not going to change that. Sorry.


Quote
Back to the 5'10" Cunningham...In build quality, this is the Mason & Hamlin of Asian-sourced pianos.


Something we can agree on. I have little doubt that the Mason & Hamlin has just as many Chinese parts as the Cunningham.

Quote

Rather than lobbing indiscriminate feces balls

Grow up.

Mike



smoke 'em if you got 'em
Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Jolly] #2196744
12/12/13 11:15 PM
12/12/13 11:15 PM
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You haven't played the Cunningham.

Therefore, thank you for admitting you really don't have a clue about what you are talking about.

Play the Cunningham, and get back to me with an honest opinion.


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Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Jolly] #2196745
12/12/13 11:21 PM
12/12/13 11:21 PM
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Carr,

You need to learn a great deal about the design of the Cunningham. If you did, your obvious lack of credibility might be less obvious.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: The piano I didn't buy, but maybe you should. [Re: Mike Carr] #2196753
12/12/13 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Carr

Chinese pianos with plywood soundboards generally sell for 30 to 50 percent of Japanese artist grade. Over reliance on MSRP or SMP, both arbitrary figures, tends to misrepresent market trends, especially those of an immediate nature, while giving the buyer a confidence that is not only unearned but unrealistic.

Chinese piano companies and their container agents, in an effort to match the brand authenticity of Japanese pianos, tend to rely on shake and bake marketing schemes, mostly centering around the revival of defunct brand names with Germanic or American shading.

In an effort to distance themselves from the superficial heritage of their own brands, Chinese marketers often hire old men who once worked for these defunct companies, looking remarkably clean and well kempt (as if the family has decided to send them into town for a quart of milk), in thoughtful poses, usually poised over a piano frame or soundboard, chisel or hammer in hand (some seem uncertain as to what it is they are doing), while wondering how soon they can cash their next check.

Mike


I have read in PB about an era when many piano makers were using "plywood" soundboards. Laminate, I believe (too lazy to Google it now). Not sure if that's true with some of the newer/better Chinese pianos everyone here keeps raving about, but I don't know.

I don't have much evidence either way about your other statements but I've suspected similar things, too: if Lothar Thomma actually works at Ritmuller or if they're just renting his name. Again, not saying they are just that I'm suspicious given the Chinese government and all their state owned companies' record of lying, corruption, and piracy.

This isn't exactly news, but last week I read about Chinese now bootlegging French Bordeaux and Burgundy.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/wine-fakers-get-sharper-industry-fights-back - What I'm curious about, is what kind of wine is actually in that bottle of Chateau Latour that some chump just paid $10,000/bottle for. Maybe it's Franzia (box wine) or Charles Shaw (coined the 2-buck Chuck from Trader Joe's). LOL

Another thought I had was some of these Chinese pianos with Abel Hammers, Renner Actions, Strungz soundboards, XYZ Keys, Rosslau Strings, etc....it starts to sound like a trip to Fry's Electronics to custom build your own PC, a custom-built Dell, etc.

Again, the speculation up there is just speculation. I guess if you don't care about the politics and you think the piano sounds & feels good, then get it. Either way, basically all of us are supporting the Chinese gov't already since almost everything in our house is made there already. Might as well go all the way and get a Chinese piano.

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