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Re: Chorales for CATS
custard apple #2191077 12/01/13 07:53 PM
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New stuff!

(1) a vii (diminished triad)
(2) a iii chord that goes to the final I chord.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19895150/vii.png

The 5th is a dissonance in the vii chord (it's a tritone about the root). So it has to be part of a PREPARE-SUSPEND-RESOLVE (down) pattern.

The iii chord at the end - iii has a leading tone (the B). That's the important part - and not the fact that it's a iii chord.

Here's another version where the common tone isn't held between vii and iii.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19895150/viiVER2.png

Coming up next: INVERSIONS!






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Re: Chorales for CATS
custard apple #2191733 12/03/13 05:06 AM
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Thanks for this interesting lesson Mark.
Is the big picture that the V can be replaced by the dim of the 7th followed + passing chord ?

Here I have a go at Ab maj.
https://app.box.com/s/zi3somdbrviu7dymnhon

the sheet
https://app.box.com/s/34or7fdl5scbp5jcs4ko

Re: Chorales for CATS
custard apple #2191754 12/03/13 07:47 AM
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Cus, The idea that the V can be replaced by the dim on the 7th scale degree is DEFINITELY on the big picture things. A slightly different way to say that is ANYTHING with a leading tone can fill in for V.

But just because it can fill in "in theory" doesn't mean it will sound good in practice. So it's gotta be ears first!

Your example in Ab maj is excellent. It has one tiny problem. But as problems go it's a good problem. smile ... Because it demonstrates something important about voice leading!

The Db in the G dmin triad. It's a dissonance which I know you know. Because it's dissonant the Db, for now, has to be part of the PREPARE SUSPEND RESOLVE (down) pattern. In your example the Db resolves up. That'll come eventually ... but for now it's good to hear how it works when it resolves down.

If you can, see if you can make that dim. 5th resolve down. Of course that'll mean some of the voices have to be re-arranged.

If what I"m suggesting isn't clear just say so ...

* * * * * * * * * * * *

-EXTRA INFO HERE THAT LOOKS AHEAD BUT CAN BE SKIPPED FOR NOW-

Some of the big picture will soon be how a dim. 7 triad turns into a fully diminished 7th chord.

That'll lead to using the fully dim. 7 chord to connect to 3 other keys. In other words, a fully dim 7 chord ( B D F Ab) in the key of C can connect just as well to Eb, Gb, and A.

Barry Harris' system plays upon that same relationship (a fully dim. 7 chord that can connect to 4 different keys). This is all stuff Arnold Schoenberg explains in very long-winded & didactic style in his Theory of Harmony book

http://monoskop.org/images/c/cd/Schoenberg_Arnold_Theory_of_Harmony.pdf

... A paper copy of the book is much easier to read and I don't know if the link raises copyright problems or not (but there it is ....)

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Re: Chorales for CATS
Mark Polishook #2192264 12/04/13 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Polishook
ANYTHING with a leading tone can fill in for V.


Hi Mark
I'm sure this will become very useful to me when I need a chord substitution or a passing chord.

Here is my revised progression where the dissonance resolves down.
https://app.box.com/s/rqhf0u6cvc5aaxybuycq

As a result, the subsequent passing chord strongly highlights the leading tone which is now in the melody (rather than being in the tenor).

the sheet
https://app.box.com/s/py3pbz78sw4xokin68rs

Thanks for the link to the Schoenberg book. I'm pretty sure he received a decent mark for his thesis wink
Some of the chapter titles sound really cool e.g. "At the frontiers of tonality".
In his chapter on Chorales, he says something like "The value of these exercises is not about the creation of something perfect, but is in the learning of principles" - my learning here suggests this is true.

Re: Chorales for CATS
custard apple #2192522 12/04/13 05:56 PM
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Cus, your revision brings perfection to the phrase smile ... You can hear it, yes? ... When the voices all are doing what they're supposed to do they do their work with very little extraneous effort - meaning they flow from beginning to end.

A next step might be to write a few phrases in minor keys. For that you'd use the melodic minor scale. So 6 and 7 are sharp ascending and they're flat descending.

I agree totally with you about what he says about the learning of principles.

Re: Chorales for CATS
Mark Polishook #2192793 12/05/13 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Polishook
Cus, your revision brings perfection to the phrase smile ... You can hear it, yes? ... When the voices all are doing what they're supposed to do they do their work with very little extraneous effort - meaning they flow from beginning to end.



Hi Mark
I can hear that the voices all lead perfectly to each other. It's all about note choice, whether the note goes up or down, it's not about the chord.

For mel min desc, is it the same then as the natural minor ?

I have a go at F mel min basic progression.
https://app.box.com/s/5tawt36c9fs01dgvxx3s

the sheet
https://app.box.com/s/t6fe83jvhqwi3q5gpjqe


Re: Chorales for CATS
custard apple #2192924 12/05/13 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by custard apple

I can hear that the voices all lead perfectly to each other. It's all about note choice, whether the note goes up or down, it's not about the chord.



Exactly!

The Fm phrase is good in concept and needs just a little bit of tuning.

1) Fm has 4 flats. If you write that as a key sig then Db and Eb are there as b6 and b7. If those two notes are to ascend they'll be written as D nat. and E nat.

2) The D in the Bb chord. IF it's a D natural (which is a perfectly fine choice) then it has an obligation to ascend to E nat. If it's Db (also a perfectly fine choice) it has an obligation to descend. ...

3) If the soprano line was revised so the G (2nd to last chord) descended to an F the phrase would sound more final. The C in the alto (in the last chord) would become an Ab.

I may have said given a choice between keeping a common tone and moving a voice that keeping the common tone was preferable. BUT ... reaching the root note in the soprano when the line is descending towards that note, takes precedence.

So there's a place where the rule has to be modified ... which is kind of the story of voice leading.

Here are a few examples. The 1st one is your phrase re-written with my suggestions. The other ones are variants but w/a few more chords.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19895150/music/Fm.png




Re: Chorales for CATS
custard apple #2193343 12/06/13 06:44 AM
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Thanks so much for your corrections Mark and your further helpful examples.

I knew mel min would be difficult but I have to admit that today's exercise was almost beyond me.

Today I tried C mel minor.
https://app.box.com/s/ek3ofdb9k1eitorn4728

the sheet
https://app.box.com/s/m53fix9k0h6zsik52mvc

Re: Chorales for CATS
custard apple #2193372 12/06/13 09:08 AM
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Cus, you're right. The minor stuff is much harder than the major. Because the possibilities that 6 and 7 bring when sharped or natural seriously up the game! If those two notes alone make things that more difficult well maybe that's a good way to understand how tangled but structured things can be when everything's freely chromatic. So that's all just a way to say rules are rules but when we HEAR the rules and internalise them we don't have to think about them and follow them!

.... There are many words that follow to describe very specific stuff. So ... to save time I've added, at the end, a file that shows more or less what all the coming words describe!!

* * * * *

About the phrase. There's some DEFINITE GOOD STUFF GOING ON. Which is

1) all the lines - each considered as an individual - are excellent.
2) The PREPARE SUSPEND RESOLVE pattern has been used 100% correctly and as it should be used!

But .... there are a few troubles to point out too. As you go through the list you'll see 2 good things vs 6 problem things! It may look like that means there's more wrong than right. BUT. That's actually not the case. The problem is that one voice leading mis-step early leads to other voice leading mishaps. In a way it's like a road way ... Take one wrong turn and the odds of following that w/more wrong turns become greater and greater.


1) C min has 3 flats in the key sig. So that should be written in.

2) You've perfectly prepared an resolved the 7ths in the second chord. BUT. The interesting thing of that chord resolving to next to a ii chord (as the phrase does) is the ii chord has a b6 scale degree. That b6 scale degree is a dissonance because it's a flatted 5th over the root D. So the "problem with having the seventh in the VI chord as you do is there's no Ab to tie over into the ii dim triad. One way around that is to use inversions. But we're still w/root position only! But that says why inversions are so necessary. Which is sometimes an inversion is the ONLY way to get to one harmony or another.

3) There's always a solution to the problem of (2). The solution is let the ii dim triad be a ii half-dim 7 chord. Which means the C in the soprano in the second chord is the beginning of a PREPARE SUSPEND RESOLVE pattern. In other words, it's ok to have a seventh chord that doesn't have a fifth or a third.

4) Another solution to (2) is to go to a iv chord in m.2 rather than a ii dim triad. Because the iv chord doesn't have notes that have to be prepared ...So voice leading is pretty easy in that case because there's less detail to attend to.

5) The triad at the beginning of the 2nd measure has 3 roots and 1 third. But 2 roots are all that can get used there. The only the place for a 3 root chord is the last chord of the phrase!

6) If there were 3 flats in the key sig then the B in the G chord could be written with a natural sign and it's function as a leading tone would be totally clear.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19895150/Cmin.png

... Hope there's not too much detail and etc. in here!!

... After I posted this I saw a problem in the bass line in the last example. Do you see it?

Last edited by Mark Polishook; 12/06/13 11:16 AM. Reason: hmmm
Re: Chorales for CATS
Mark Polishook #2193822 12/07/13 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Polishook

The problem is that one voice leading mis-step early leads to other voice leading mishaps. In a way it's like a road way ... Take one wrong turn and the odds of following that w/more wrong turns become greater and greater.


That is so true Mark. When I saw the 3 roots at the beginning of the 2nd measure, I thought "Oh no ! I'm gonna post anyway because I don't know how to get out of this maze !"

Given that I'm falling into all these traps, I will wait a couple of months before I touch melodic minor again.

But I'm glad I spent 2 weeks working on these classical common practice progressions as it's taught me a lot about smooth lines and choosing notes which will achieve maximum impact.


Re: Chorales for CATS
custard apple #2193823 12/07/13 06:45 AM
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Today I decided to record my progress on the Chopin Prelude in E minor.
https://app.box.com/s/jpgm2grnzli89a9ch594

Re: Chorales for CATS
custard apple #2193899 12/07/13 11:44 AM
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Cus,

That's coming along REALLY REALLY nicely. I can hear the LH technique is definitely taking hold. Interesting how the technique of this particular piece influences tempo? Would you say?

You've done an incredible amount with the voice leading stuff ... we can pull it out of the garage at some later point if you wish. This stuff is REALLY hard because it's so detailed and it's almost always taught in a class where a lot of eyes and ears can follow along and comment. So what you've done on your own with this is REALLY something ....



I went for listen to Alfred Cortot playing the Em prelude ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkxKCW8nq0Y

and found this entirely bewitching version by Stanislav Richter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdhwqjhx-Xc

I have to meditate on this one smile

Last edited by Mark Polishook; 12/07/13 11:46 AM.
Re: Chorales for CATS
Mark Polishook #2194115 12/07/13 06:29 PM
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Hi Mark
Thanks for your kind words about my voice-leading exercises and my Chopin technique.

Yes I think a faster tempo makes phrasing easier. But it was very interesting that the captivating Richter version was at a slower tempo, yet the phrasing was so clear.
I thought Richter's touch, lyricism and dynamics were magical.
This is one for the Favorites.

The Cortot one was special too.

Re: Chorales for CATS
custard apple #2194293 12/08/13 12:40 AM
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Cus,
It is remarkable how you challenge yourself with this prelude, the way you play the left hand is so difficult. Very well done.

Re: Chorales for CATS
custard apple #2194326 12/08/13 01:57 AM
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Thanks for your nice comment Knotty.
I practise with one note, then 2 notes then 3 notes.

Once again, I'm inspired by your playing. That's why I always let you post first. Because when I hear your version, I feel that these difficult technique pieces such as Bach Chorales and Chopin can be played.

Re: Chorales for CATS
custard apple #2194880 12/09/13 07:33 AM
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Here I attempt to play BMW 244-63 the famous D major chorale.
It's called O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden and is #80 in my Kalmus edition, however I believe it's #98 in most editions.

http://youtu.be/13E3VnLbu_g

Re: Chorales for CATS
custard apple #2194935 12/09/13 11:24 AM
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Nicely done Cus. The voices are coming out nice and clear. I might try that one out next. I haven't been so serious with it lately.

Re: Chorales for CATS
custard apple #2195058 12/09/13 03:31 PM
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Thanks so much for listening Knotty.
I might try BMV 322 "Gott sei gelobet und gebenedeiet" next. It's #70 in my Kalmus edition.

Re: Chorales for CATS
custard apple #2195482 12/10/13 11:02 AM
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wonderful playing! very expressive !! and nice chorale choice too!

Re: Chorales for CATS
custard apple #2195689 12/10/13 06:53 PM
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Thank you Mark for your kind feedback.
I thought it was an interesting one as the key was ambiguous between D maj and B min.

For the long one I plan to do next, maybe I will do a phrase every few days.

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