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One very simple way to remember basic keys is this: BEADGCF This is the order of flats. When you're in a flat key, you add flats in this order. The key you are in corresponds to the letter before the last flat. Example: if you have five flats, BEA DG, then the key is D-flat. Three flats, B EA, the key is E-flat. For sharps, do the opposite: FCGDAEB The key is two forward this time. So, one sharp, F. The key is F-C- G. Six sharps, FCGDAE, the key is FCGDAE-B- F, F-sharp major (because F is sharp in the key signature). Hope this is helpful. It may be what you were describing, but this is a little simpler way to think of it.  Hm, I'd say this method would be effective when determining key when analyzing a piece. I was thinking more of already knowing the sharps or flats of a key. Thanks for your input anyway! Maybe it will come to help if I would ever happen to analyze something  Memorize it the same way. You want to know which flats are in the key of Ab? B-E-A-D. Four flats. If you're not asking that, then I'm not sure I understand what it is you're asking..
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
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Dammit couldn't they design a piano with only white keys It would make for pretty dull music... Which leads to an interesting question: is there any piano music written in the last three centuries that uses only white keys? That's the same as asking is there any music composed to be purely diatonic and the answer is yes. Lots of simple music in fact but they are not all written in the key of C whereby they would be played with all white keys but some are.
Russ
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Punchslap,
The "Circle of Fifths" is merely a chart. don't let the circle confuse you. There are other spreadsheet-like chart designs that make the reference a little clearer. One, similar to like what was posted here by someone.
Russ
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The best way to learn and know the sharps and flats for any key it to just practice the major scale for all of them.
Knowing the number black keys is one thing, knowing which ones they should be is another. The major scale is easy to figure for any starting note.
Best thing to do is memorize the interval pattern to the major scale: W W H W W W H. Whole and Half steps. See how that works in C major, all white keys. Start with any key and duplicate this pattern and get familiar with it.
Russ
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Punchslap, I like Brian K's recommendation a lot, and also Sand Tiger's. The circle of fifths can provide helpful presentation of the relationship between keys, and there are mnemonics that can help if your mind leans that way. But for really internalizing all this information, you need to practice it, a lot, starting small and slowly building.
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One very simple way to remember basic keys is this: BEADGCF This is the order of flats. When you're in a flat key, you add flats in this order. The key you are in corresponds to the letter before the last flat. Example: if you have five flats, BEA DG, then the key is D-flat. Three flats, B EA, the key is E-flat. For sharps, do the opposite: FCGDAEB The key is two forward this time. So, one sharp, F. The key is F-C- G. Six sharps, FCGDAE, the key is FCGDAE-B- F, F-sharp major (because F is sharp in the key signature). Hope this is helpful. It may be what you were describing, but this is a little simpler way to think of it. Hm, I'd say this method would be effective when determining key when analyzing a piece. I was thinking more of already knowing the sharps or flats of a key. Thanks for your input anyway! Maybe it will come to help if I would ever happen to analyze something Memorize it the same way. You want to know which flats are in the key of Ab? B-E-A-D. Four flats. If you're not asking that, then I'm not sure I understand what it is you're asking.. I don't want to count the flats or sharps, I want to know before I enter a key how many flats there already are. But I guess I didn't know by the time I replied to you that you could determine flats and sharps from the name of the key, I only thought of it from the other way first(determining key from flats and sharps). But I realized now what you meant, thanks!
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Dammit couldn't they design a piano with only white keys It would make for pretty dull music... Which leads to an interesting question: is there any piano music written in the last three centuries that uses only white keys? That's the same as asking is there any music composed to be purely diatonic and the answer is yes. Lots of simple music in fact but they are not all written in the key of C whereby they would be played with all white keys but some are. Oh, I didn't mean to exclude the tones that are on the black keys on my imaginary piano with only white keys, simply make them white too. The piano would indeed be much wider and it would be harder to reach, but it would make it so much easier with the problem I have right know. I suppose you would have a hard time visualizing the tones for each key, to solve that we could use markings, as on the guitar. I should totally do one of these.
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Oh, I didn't mean to exclude the tones that are on the black keys on my imaginary piano with only white keys, simply make them white too. The piano would indeed be much wider and it would be harder to reach, but it would make it so much easier with the problem I have right know.
I suppose you would have a hard time visualizing the tones for each key, to solve that we could use markings, as on the guitar.
I should totally do one of these. Well, if there were only the white keys, it would be hard to tell where you are or where to begin and you would be stuck in one diatonic key but you would have all the modes as well. There was a time in history when music was pretty much just that. Chants! Old mid-evil century chants. You've hear them in movies. Music began with just 6 notes. The history and evolution of music is interesting. What we have today is the diatonic system going back some 300 years now. This is the fundamental core of modern music structure. Understand the diatonic system which includes the major note scale and the "cord" scale and is all clearly given by the white keys alone for the Key of C. Once you see and understand this you will see the forest for the trees. All other keys are structured the same identical way. But don't misunderstand. All music is written in some Key which means the notes and chords are in scale but not always. Always would be something purely and 100% diatonic which can be realize in a lot of simple music that is very tonal and can be most beautiful. But music become interesting and complicated as well when notes and chords outside of Key are introduced and in written music you will see notes identified with sharps or flats called accidentals. In a sense, you could call this music near diatonic. It's not 100% diatonic. I think it's more important to see the diatonic structure for a key that will include black keys that to be so concerned about the black keys themselves. The diatonic structure will give the reason for each black key just as clearly as to why each white key is played for C major. The Key of Ab for example, the center black key in the group of 3. Ab, the note is the first note in the scale. The second "degree" note in the scale is Bb, why? Just look at the pattern. The second note is a whole step away. The third note is also a whole step away and that would be C after Bb. On guitar, a whole step would be two frets. All is the same with other instruments. This pattern will make you realize what black key need to be played and why. This is all part of basic theory of music and the diatonic structure. From that you can begin to build on a more concrete understanding of musical structure. You need to know this in order to create and write and really know what it is you're doing. Understanding music is more important than merely being able to play. Enjoy the learning!
Russ
Yamaha CP5
Casio PX130
Yamaha AP Upright
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Oh, I didn't mean to exclude the tones that are on the black keys on my imaginary piano with only white keys, simply make them white too. The piano would indeed be much wider and it would be harder to reach, but it would make it so much easier with the problem I have right know.
I suppose you would have a hard time visualizing the tones for each key, to solve that we could use markings, as on the guitar.
I should totally do one of these. Well, if there were only the white keys, it would be hard to tell where you are or where to begin and you would be stuck in one diatonic key but you would have all the modes as well. There was a time in history when music was pretty much just that. Chants! Old mid-evil century chants. You've hear them in movies. Music began with just 6 notes. The history and evolution of music is interesting. What we have today is the diatonic system going back some 300 years now. This is the fundamental core of modern music structure. Understand the diatonic system which includes the major note scale and the "cord" scale and is all clearly given by the white keys alone for the Key of C. Once you see and understand this you will see the forest for the trees. All other keys are structured the same identical way. But don't misunderstand. All music is written in some Key which means the notes and chords are in scale but not always. Always would be something purely and 100% diatonic which can be realize in a lot of simple music that is very tonal and can be most beautiful. But music become interesting and complicated as well when notes and chords outside of Key are introduced and in written music you will see notes identified with sharps or flats called accidentals. In a sense, you could call this music near diatonic. It's not 100% diatonic. I think it's more important to see the diatonic structure for a key that will include black keys that to be so concerned about the black keys themselves. The diatonic structure will give the reason for each black key just as clearly as to why each white key is played for C major. The Key of Ab for example, the center black key in the group of 3. Ab, the note is the first note in the scale. The second "degree" note in the scale is Bb, why? Just look at the pattern. The second note is a whole step away. The third note is also a whole step away and that would be C after Bb. On guitar, a whole step would be two frets. All is the same with other instruments. This pattern will make you realize what black key need to be played and why. This is all part of basic theory of music and the diatonic structure. From that you can begin to build on a more concrete understanding of musical structure. You need to know this in order to create and write and really know what it is you're doing. Understanding music is more important than merely being able to play. Enjoy the learning! I really appreciate your intention to learn, but I think you must have misunderstood me. If there were only white keys, with all the black keys made white, all the white keys would form a "chromatic(not diatonic)" pattern. The point I was trying to convey was that all the scales in all keys are then visualized exactly alike, you would only need to shift the position to change key, as on the guitar. Also, on the guitar, there are markings, so you won't get lost, we use these as quick reference points when trying to determine what tone each fret is. I said that we could have markings on this imaginary piano as well, again, so you can find the name of the tone that each piano key produces. Anyway, your explanation of the system was clear as day in any case.
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Mmmmmmmm, instead of all that , maybe buy a book on Modern Harmony and COmposition?
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I said that we could have markings on this imaginary piano as well, again, so you can find the name of the tone that each piano key produces. I think I'm beginning to understand your meaning. If I understood the guitar's marking on the neck better I would probably understand better what you are trying to point out here. I can only say at this point without any further explanation from you that the black keys are use as a reference for a keyboardist. I use to strum chords on the guitar but I never understood the guitar. I'm familiar with the markings on the neck. I would be able to understand the guitar now. Back then, I had no music theory. I didn't even know the note names of each open string. I think now, it goes: E A D G B E. Is that correct?
Last edited by RUSS SHETTLE; 12/10/13 09:38 PM.
Russ
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Punchslap, accept, for now, the construction of scales, the circle of fifths, and all that stuff with the knowledge that in time, it will make sense and you'll get it. The keyboard topography does have huge advantages over the guitar (I play both instruments to "above average" level).
Rather than practise all the scales every day pick one and choose two or three pieces/songs in that key, two of which you're very familiar with as music (and able to improvise on). Practise the scales, major and, if you know them, minor, the arpeggios and broken chords, the three major and three minor chords of the key in all their inversions. Then work on the songs and improvising and so on. Chords in RH, bass in LH and/or melody in RH and chords in LH, and any other way you can think of.
If you're going a wider route than rock/pop etc. and leaning more towards jazz or other more advanced music, pick a key and it's dominant (e.g. C and G, D and A, etc.) and add a piece of classical music, more classical period than baroque or Romantic, and practise the scales, arpeggios and the three pieces - two songs and the classical piece. You'll be restricted in key in small sonatinas by Clementi, Kuhlau, Dussek, Diabelli, etc but they use fairly simple material as well. Once you know the piece reasonably well (and simplify it by all means) then transpose to the key you're working on.
Spend a week or more on each of C, G and F then repeat adding a key and a week each cycle.
How often do you play in flat keys on the guitar without a capo? It's not often because the guitar, remember, is not really a chromatic instrument. You'll find, in time, the piano is much more capable of playing in all the keys. They each have their own topography that you'll become familiar with and be readily able to play in. But give each key enough time to become familiar before moving on and don't try to learn them all at once or it may take too long for the keys to offer up their idiosyncrasies.
Richard
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Yes, the markings on this special piano were to be used as reference points I thought. Whatever, I guess it's not important.
IMO, I think it's easier to get to know the notes on the piano as there is a clearer reference points for each one(just see where one note is compared to the others in the 12-semitone segments). But if you were to learn all the note locations for guitar, I'd say it's more versatile in terms of transposition and visualizing keys(as the fingering is the same for each key).
Well, thanks for your help everyone! I'll try focusing and playing around with one key at a time; and hopefully, in time, I'll learn them all.
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