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Thanks everyone for your contributions to this thread!

lolatu, I also am using the Mikuli edition. What do you think about starting at the beginning and then focusing on the sections that Richard has outlined above? I'm thinking in terms of discussion. I wouldn't mind going through the sections and talking about things that need focusing on.

I rather liked neuralfirings breakdown of the piece so, hopefully it is ok with neuralfirings if I post it here!

http://musical.neuralfirings.com/category/analysis/

1.Bars 1-7: Introduction
2.Bars 8-32: Theme I in G minor
3.Bars 33-35: Transition/Candenza
4.Bars 36-44: Theme I, at double speed
5.Bars 45-66: Transition/Modulation
6.Bars 67-81: Theme II in Eb major
7.Bars 82-93: Theme I, used as a transition section
8.Bars 94-105: Theme I in A minor
9.Bars 106-125 Theme II in A major, more grandiosly grand
10.Bars 126-137: Transition and foreshadowing the waltz
11.Bars 138-149: The Waltz in Eb major
12.Bars 150-165: Not sure what this is
13.Bars 166-169: Theme II in Eb major, more elegantly grand
14.Bars 170-193: Theme I used again as transition, descending down to…
15.Bars 194-205: Theme I in G minor, same as first time it was presented
16.Bars 206-207: Cadenza down to the infamous coda
17.Bars 208-241: Coda con crazy
18.Bars 242-248: Cadenza, chromatic runs up then down the piano
19.Bars 249-257: Cadenza, scales with Theme I snuck in
20.Bars 258-264: Final descending flourish to the end

INTRODUCTION: BARS 1-7.

Bars 1-7: the introduction of the piece. It is marked as “C” or common time, which is like 4/4 time isn’t it?

Bars 1-3 : The piece is initially marked “Largo” which means in a very slow tempo (slower than adagio). Inside the first bar there is “pesante” which means heavy and ponderous. The first three bars are all in one phrase for both the RH and LH so to me this means to play them smoothly and legato. What is the best way to pedal these first three bars? My copy of the score does not show any pedal but I believe in the Play it Again book, the score showed a pedal mark up to the end of the second measure?

The passage is marked forte with a decrescendo throughout bar 3, though the piece is not marked piano until bar 4. So maybe not too softly in bar 3. Perahia says the G to the F# at the end of bar 3 is like a sigh. What might that mean in terms of playing it?

Bars 4 and 5 are also caught under one phrase so should be played smoothly. There are two triplets, one in bar 4 (A, G and Eflat) and one in bar 5 (Fnatural, Eflat and D). At the end of bar 5 there is a rest , and then a half rest beginning bar 6. I have “still” written over that section. I must have read that in PiA book.

Bar 6 and 7 show a decrescendo for the RH and a crescendo for the LH. There is also an interesting rolled chord in bar 7. Is it acceptable to play the Bflat in the RH after the rolled chord in the LH?

Wow lots of details just in the first 7 measures. None of which I can yet play. ( I haven’t tried anything but the notes so far).

So my own journey with this piece has taken a few steps back. I've been practicing on my digital piano (Yamaha P105, for lolatu) so far. I had a chance to play on my baby grand while visiting my parents over Christmas, and I have to say.. it was much harder to get the good tone on my acoustic piano. Eek! Unfortunately, I don't have an acoustic here to practice on so I'm not quite sure what to do about that.

I treat this piece as a marathon. When my friends run marathon, none of them expect to do it at a professional level. Half of them have really bad times, but they finished and they've accomplished something. They keep training and hopefully will hit a better time at the next marathon, but there's no shame in getting a bad time.

P.S. Re: Valencia
Feel free to post anything from my blog, just link back to the article, which you did.

I don't see a decrescendo for the RH.


Yes; the whole thing is rolled, but be careful not to lose the thread of the melody.

Valencia, this is now I approached this introductory section. It's not to say this is the right way (I am not a professional or a teacher), but just to give you an idea of how I thought about each section and then how I implemented my interpretation. I also included the images of the bars to make it easier to follow.

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Re: Bars 1-3 : The piece is initially marked “Largo” which means in a very slow tempo (slower than adagio). Inside the first bar there is “pesante” which means heavy and ponderous. The first three bars are all in one phrase for both the RH and LH so to me this means to play them smoothly and legato. What is the best way to pedal these first three bars? My copy of the score does not show any pedal but I believe in the Play it Again book, the score showed a pedal mark up to the end of the second measure?



This section to me is like a booming voice (think: James Earl Jones) saying "once upon a time." So I wanted to something heavy and clear (but not too clear).

I foot-pedal each individual note in the first measure and finger pedal them (I'm holding down at most two notes per hand at a time), and towards the end of this section I keep my pedal down.

I find the pedal gives it a certain gravity that is good for the pesante-ness of this introductory section. But, too much pedaling in the beginning makes this section mirky, and I think this section is a very clear call to action. Thus, I foot pedal every note. However, I also like a little bit of sustain to add to the drama, hence the finger pedaling.

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Re: Perahia says the G to the F# at the end of bar 3 is like a sigh. What might that mean in terms of playing it?



How I interpreted it is that the "sighs" shape the dynamics, so billowing crescendo (inhale) followed by a light decrescendo, sort of like a very gentle brushstroke.

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Re: Bar 6 and 7 show a decrescendo for the RH and a crescendo for the LH. There is also an interesting rolled chord in bar 7. Is it acceptable to play the Bflat in the RH after the rolled chord in the LH?



I haven't thought of it that way. I play it with Bb in right hand and D in left hand at the same time. But hey, if you like it your way.. go for it. I do play the Eb with my right thumb though. I find it gives it more weight and it's such a pretty note.

I can't see how that could be right. It makes much more sense to roll it.

M1: <bravado> I'm going to be brave and fight for my country! I lift the pedal on each C and again on the G for the sigh. The sigh, ah, <sentimentality> the country I haven't seen since...is it still there?

The four note drop to the sigh occurs six times in the scherzando with an intervening F.

M6: Chopin Institute score shows an accent on the C, Mikuli shows a decrescendo from C to G. Both show the crescendo.

M7: I play the Bb after a very quiet rolled chord almost as a four note chord.

Neural, is there a way of containing those images in a smaller box or leaving them as a link? If they mean I have to scroll to read the ends of each line of text I'm not going to be very active here.

zrtrf90: Do you know how to write the UBB code to make smaller images? I have the opposite problem of you, whenever I read a post with a bunch of bar numbers (in M158.., then in M60..) my eyes glaze over because I tire of constantly referring to/from the score. I can do links though in the meanwhile.

re: M7: I play the Bb after a very quiet rolled chord almost as a four note chord. -- this is interesting!! I don't see the Bb as part of the chord at all, I see it more as part of the melody C-G-Bb...stuff happens and resolves to.. G in M9 (http://www.notablescores.com/pieces/1?start=7&end=9). And because so much happens between the Bb in M7 and the G in M9, I feel compelled to make it stand out even more than other melodic notes. It is kind of an amazing cliffhanger. This type of cliffhanger happens a lot in his transitions. Other examples:

http://www.notablescores.com/pieces/1?start=32&end=36 -- A in M32 cliffhanger and resolves to the G in M36.

http://www.notablescores.com/pieces/1?start=65&end=69 -- F in the left hand of M65 resolving to E in the right hand in M69.

By the way, I'm using the term "resolving" in a purely emotional sense.

Polyphonist: First, I think playing the right hand at the start in measure 7 (http://www.notablescores.com/pieces/1?start=7&end=7) connects the right hand melody (C-G-Bb) better. Second, the roll squiggles don't extend to the upper staff.

- me too.

Your images all look fine and centred to me, maybe Richard could adjust something in his browser?

The images are fine...but they cause the text to scroll off the end of the screen. I'll resort to the Print Topic option, which keeps the text and causes the images to scroll off screen!

In the meantime I'll save up for a 24" monitor at home (and a wider desk)!

The Bb IS part of the melody. If those three notes were played to 'fifty-three' the chord is like a slow 'thr' in 'three' and the Bb the 'ee'.

This is great! I've been through and labelled my score with these.

Some of the technical questions, like how to play the Bb, can be answered by listening to a recording (e.g. Zimerman). He plays it like it's part of the rolled chord.

Richard - try pressing 'Ctrl' and '-' keys in your browser should make everything smaller so it fits... then 'Ctrl' and '0' to get it back to normal size.

The problem is that the LH rolled chord doesn't sound like one chord anymore if you do that.

(hope it's not too random)

If it hasn't been mentioned already, Graham Fitch's article on the first Ballade here has a link to Alfred Cortot's edition of the piece, which, like his edition of the etudes, includes exercises for various passages as well as tips for constructing additional ones which might come in handy. While Cortot was known for altering the music in places, his pedagogic advice was well-received.

lolatu, thank you so much for that. I had no idea Explorer had a zoom feature.

I should practise piano less and explore Explorer more!

I differ from the breakdown, apart from the odd bar here and there, at M166.

I see M166-180 as commensurate with 68-82 (and 106-125) and M180-194 with M82-93, which together form the second theme. I'd like to tie up M125-137 the same way but I can't.

Thanks, Bob. Yes, some of the preparatory exercises are spot on, especially the ones for shifting hands.

What do you mean "I'd like to tie up M125-137 the same way but I can't."?

(link to bars: http://www.notablescores.com/pieces/1?start=125&end=137)

Oh, all I meant was that in the three instances of the second theme, M68-82, M106-125 and M166-180 the middle occurrence wasn't followed by the same material. If M125-137 is based on M82-94 I'm missing it. That's all.

But you can go back to your images now!

Ah! I see. The first and last statement of Theme II goes directly into statements of Theme I. However, the middle statement of Theme II is preceded by Theme I, and it goes into a little interlude. The waltz, the transitional sections. It's like a little intermission after all the drama.

That's about the gist of it but I don't see M36-43 as a contraction of Theme I, more a separate theme, like a second half of Theme II or a bridge/transitional theme of some kind.

Sorry for the long hiatus from this thread. I’ve been away visiting family. Has anyone started their study of the Ballade yet?

Bobpickle, thanks for the link to the article! There are some good practice tips there for the waltz section.

Lolatu I listened to Zimerman. wow. there are lots of things he does differently compared to horowitz or rubinstein. I'll have to listen to his playing several more times and take some notes!

Thanks Richard and neuralfirings for your input on the intro. Neuralfirings, good description of the sighs. I’ll practice that throughout bars 8-20--perhaps exaggerating the crescendo and decrescendo, just to get the hang of it. Also I’ll keep a listen for those other cliffhangers, thanks for pointing them out!

Some initial thoughts on the next section:


THEME I IN G MINOR: BARS 8-32

Bar 8: the piece switches to 6/4 time and is now marked “moderato” which means moderate tempo. My score shows the pedal to start on the D in the LH, and to let up on the last note of the bar which is an A. Then there are no pedal marks for the rest of this section which seems strange.

There is an accent on the C of the RH, and I have the last two notes of Bar 8 and the first note of bar 9 in the RH circled: Bb, A and G. Probably from Play it Again. Above it I have written “important descent: a sigh/sadness”. So this is a place to practice the crescendo and decrescendo.

Regarding the repeating notes in the LH and RH, I have a note to make the second note or chord a little weaker than the first, like a heartbeat.

In the RH of the section there is Theme 1: C, D, F#, Bb, A, G which as neuralfirings pointed out, comes back many times throughout the piece. Am I reading it right that the C is held through the D, F#, Bb and then released on the descending notes of A and G?

At bar 21 there is a change. This passage perhaps starts slower and then gains a little tempo over the next couple of bars. When I play this section with my LH, rather than changing fingers on the half note, I’ve been keeping my thumb anchored on it and then just pivoting over the top to strike the quarter note that follows with my second finger.

When a melody starts in the LH at bar 24 I have a note about bringing that out. This section seems to build to the trill in bar 25. Or maybe it builds to the start of bar 28?

The LH trill in bar 25 is on the F and Enatural. There is a crescendo marked under that trill. Does the trill start on the F to the E natural?

It will take me awhile to be able to play bars 21-25 or 26 so that I can give it a sense of building up. I may have to memorize it first.

I’m not sure yet what to say about bars 26-31. Except that this section seems to slow down and emphasizes something important. Just listening to Zimerman play and it sounds like the build up carries into it after the trill. (from 1:35 to about 1:45).

At bar 32 there is the cliffhanger noted by neuralfirings (the A in the RH with an accent over it). Then it moves into the transition section with the little notes.


BARS 33-35: TRANSITION/CANDENZA

Not sure what to say about this section except that I’ve been trying to learn the little notes. I had similar little notes in the Chopin Mazurka 17/4, only not so many of them. Found it tricky to get them sounding relaxed and improvised. Then of course there is the job of getting the LH to join them.

I have memorized the intro and have played the next section a bit. It's hard to concentrate and not carry on playing into the next parts when I get the end of section 2! Truthfully, I've been working more on other pieces. I'm making special efforts to memorize some that I've been playing for a while, and it really helps in getting to know the music fluently. Will try to do the same with each section of the Ballade too.

Just keep listening to Zimerman - he's the best. BTW did you notice how in the video he swaps his piano stool near the end of the piece? Guy has talent.

In other news, I've just got hold of a new stand for my digital piano, which will enable me to practice longer, harder, faster... wobbles no more.