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#2193948 - 12/07/13 12:57 PM Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade?  
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Eric NYC Offline
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I'm considering getting the Yamaha Avantgrand, probably the N2.

However, the Avantgrand line has been out for four years now (released 2009), and is probably due for an upgrade. Presumably the newer model will be better and less expensive.

If I get the N2 and Yamaha releases a new model, presumably I'll be stuck with an older version and will have missed the opportunity to get the newer, cheaper model. Also, the resale value of my N2 will immediately drop because the value in the second-had market (though small) is strongly dependent on the value of the new models.

So I have the usual choice: buy now, or wait and hope that something better comes along in the short term.

Is there any reason to think that Yamaha will release a newer model any time soon? Is there any information or informed speculation on how much better the new models might be, and how they will compare in price with the new models?

Thanks for any information or suggestions.


Yamaha Avantgrand N2, Bush & Lane upright grand (1920s), Steinway upright grand (1893)
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#2193952 - 12/07/13 01:01 PM Re: Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade? [Re: Eric NYC]  
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Given that these high-end pianos sell in extremely small numbers, I wouldn't expect a new model any time soon. Many years passed between the Gran Touch and the first N, and I'd expect many more before a successor comes along.

#2193956 - 12/07/13 01:11 PM Re: Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade? [Re: Eric NYC]  
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My local Yamaha retailer dropped the price of its AvantGrands by nearly 20% last summer, and I thought an upgrade was in the offing which includes CFX samples, as on the NU1.

Then the price went back up again........ grin


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
#2193998 - 12/07/13 02:12 PM Re: Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade? [Re: Eric NYC]  
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Yeah, first of all 2009 isn't that old for a digital piano model, especially from Yamaha. Secondly, the high end stuff like AvantGrands get updates particularly infrequently. If they did update it they would just change the sounds and keep the mechanisms pretty much the same, I would think. But the sounds are still among the best Yamaha has ever put out. Until that changes, I don't see any replacements coming. I would expect it to be many years. I would be very surprised if it was fewer than 5. I could be wrong, of course.

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#2193999 - 12/07/13 02:16 PM Re: Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade? [Re: Eric NYC]  
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Out of curiosity, what features that the N2 doesn't have are you looking for in an upgraded version?




website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
#2194089 - 12/07/13 04:32 PM Re: Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade? [Re: Eric NYC]  
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It's been closer to 5 years since the Avant Grand. I'd wait till NAMM (about a month away); just in case.

#2194104 - 12/07/13 04:53 PM Re: Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade? [Re: Dave Horne]  
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Out of curiosity, what features that the N2 doesn't have are you looking for in an upgraded version?


Dave, that is a good question. May I ask you what you would like to see in terms of improvements, if anything, in the next version of the N3?

Last edited by Amaruk; 12/07/13 04:53 PM.

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#2194130 - 12/07/13 06:00 PM Re: Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade? [Re: Amaruk]  
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Dave Horne Offline
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The only improvement for me would be having the action of a nine footer instead of a six or slightly less than six footer.





website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
#2194158 - 12/07/13 07:24 PM Re: Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade? [Re: Pete14]  
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Originally Posted by Pete14
It's been closer to 5 years since the Avant Grand. I'd wait till NAMM (about a month away); just in case.

I'd wait until NAMM 2020 or thereabouts. By then the DP industry will have either come up to speed with circa 2000 samplers or completely folded (or continue to just make toys, same thing) due to overwhelming apathy.

If you need something now: buy low-end, used, SN (maybe), or roll your own with a PC/MAC. It's all pretty sad but I don't make the rules.

#2194159 - 12/07/13 07:27 PM Re: Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade? [Re: Eric NYC]  
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Bartek Offline
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Improvements/Needs:
1. Damper action
2. Real Yamaha piano action with real hammers (avantgrands as grantouches have specially for them designed actions with the wippen/jack from plastic)
3. Different sample set for headphones

Without the damper action the feeling is different to that what is felt on real grand piano and it cannot me mimicked with heavier counterweitght.

In other words just that what is already since many years in Silent Grand Pianos, and what is not in avantgrands for cost saving (for Yamaha, not for a customer).

Today if you want to have really REAL feeling of real grand piano action the only way is to buy Silent series grandpiano.

I think the next hybrid line will be in 2015:
1997: Grantouch GT1 GT2 GT7 (Revolutionary Hybrid pianos at that time)
2003: Grantouch DGP5 DGP7 (Japan only) - revised action (the same later in avantgrand), newer sample pool, improved speaker system
2009: Avantgrands (actually nothing new, the new sample set, still based on loops is actually poor for that price comparing to many pc based vst's)
2015: *** Something with binaural samples same as in current silent CX series.

#2194163 - 12/07/13 07:32 PM Re: Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade? [Re: Eric NYC]  
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They make just what you want! It's called a baby grand piano.
Honestly ... if you want it all, buy it all. Get an acoustic.

#2194310 - 12/08/13 12:14 AM Re: Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade? [Re: Eric NYC]  
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@Bartek. Good list. I'd also want the best CFX sample set (at least what's in the Yamaha silent pianos), better implementation of the sustain pedal (presently, depressing sustain increases volume of already sustaining notes slightly -- wholly unrealistic), hi-def MIDI (like um that found in $500 Casios), no noise gate (so that I could pipe software pianos into the DP), the ability to use TRS when piping software pianos into the DP, digital audio recording on board (not just MIDI recording).

Wait for winter NAMM for new product and winter sales.


Steinway B
Yamaha AvantGrand N2
Roland RD-700NX
#2194381 - 12/08/13 05:10 AM Re: Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade? [Re: MacMacMac]  
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
They make just what you want! It's called a baby grand piano.
Honestly ... if you want it all, buy it all. Get an acoustic.


smile




website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
#2194424 - 12/08/13 09:18 AM Re: Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade? [Re: Eric NYC]  
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I know that, so that's why I'm going to buy an acoustic.
But Id like to have an opportunity to have an additional real hybrid piano in an apartment for practice. So smaller, without the metal frame, strings etc. Without "sound" parts, only action parts.
A real hybrid grand piano for me would just have the same action as pulled out from lets say yamaha C1 silent (key action + damper action + pedal action) and thats all.
The trs system, and all other gadgets are really far behind these priorities.

I think that yamaha in fact is not currently interested in real development of their products, some time ago they slow down it. Look that the avantgrands are in fact the grantouches with just some revisions (in 17 years ?). Clavinovas too. The CLP 990 dating 2001 had better quality "action" (long wooden keys, sophisticated counterweighting hammers imitation) than the top models clavinovas have today (plactic, empty inside keys, with just a metal stick under it - something for cost saving, simplified production, space and weight saving - for easy implementation in clavinovas, stage pianos and everything - but not exactly for you to have a better, more realistic feeling).
Kawai makes wooden keys in their digitals and far better imitation of the hammers (where they are not under the keys but really on the end on the lever on the other side). But sadly they dont make a competitor for the avantgrands ( they stopped with the EGP 1 as a competitor to grantouch, and I dont know exactly, as far as I know it had a real action, but the sensing system was inferior to that in grantouches).

#2194429 - 12/08/13 09:31 AM Re: Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade? [Re: Bartek]  
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I think that yamaha in fact is not currently interested in real development of their products, some time ago they slow down it.

If you look at acoustic pianos there have been changes but a piano that's 100 years old will look pretty much like a piano made today. It's a rather mature technology, right?





website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
#2194463 - 12/08/13 11:21 AM Re: Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade? [Re: Eric NYC]  
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I am able weekly to play a Grandtouch and I own an AG N2. The AG isn't perfect, but it's better than its predecessor the Grandtouch -- more color, more responsiveness, better action (though, that may largely be due to its newness), better sound system.


Steinway B
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#2194485 - 12/08/13 12:03 PM Re: Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade? [Re: MacMacMac]  
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
They make just what you want! It's called a baby grand piano.
Honestly ... if you want it all, buy it all. Get an acoustic.
My house is too small for a grand. I almost bought a grandtouch years ago but in the end I decided on an upright. The AG was a huge step up sound-wise and was less money (N2.) It took me 20 minutes on AG to know it was time to go hybrid. You have to think that Yamaha will only update current models when they can take it to another level and just updating to a CFX sample won't be enough unless they use full unadulterated four channel samples.

My only complaint is the Rhodes sample could of been a lot better.


AG N2 | CP4 | SSv3 | GK MK & MP
#2194564 - 12/08/13 03:36 PM Re: Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade? [Re: Eric NYC]  
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More desirable incremental improvements, based on the NU1 hybrid, which has the CFX samples. More options to customise the tone: EQ, hammer, lid, attack/sustain, or similar. Improve the ability to save custom settings. The non-piano sounds are c**p, so lots of room for improvement there, a decent harp, clav, EP or two and maybe organ or two; but these are probably not where they are aiming in the market.

#2196341 - 12/11/13 10:54 PM Re: Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade? [Re: Bartek]  
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Improvements/Needs:
1. Damper action


What are you referring to?


Yamaha Avantgrand N2, Bush & Lane upright grand (1920s), Steinway upright grand (1893)
#2196342 - 12/11/13 10:55 PM Re: Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade? [Re: Eric NYC]  
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Thanks to you all for your comments.


Yamaha Avantgrand N2, Bush & Lane upright grand (1920s), Steinway upright grand (1893)
#2196362 - 12/12/13 12:32 AM Re: Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade? [Re: Eric NYC]  
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Originally Posted by Eric NYC
Improvements/Needs:
1. Damper action


What are you referring to?


I assume it was that the AG doesn't have any dampers. This means that pressing the pedal does not change the weight of the keys. In an acoustic, a key press must also lift the damper for that key. If the pedal is pressed there is no need, so the key weight is lighter.

#2196409 - 12/12/13 04:19 AM Re: Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade? [Re: gvfarns]  
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Originally Posted by gvfarns
Originally Posted by Eric NYC
Improvements/Needs:
1. Damper action


What are you referring to?


I assume it was that the AG doesn't have any dampers. This means that pressing the pedal does not change the weight of the keys. In an acoustic, a key press must also lift the damper for that key. If the pedal is pressed there is no need, so the key weight is lighter.

+ possibly sensors for damper velocity (or better yet, position). If we are talking about real action...

#2201581 - 12/22/13 07:59 PM Re: Avantgrand - when is Yamaha expected to release an upgrade? [Re: Eric NYC]  
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A nice improvement would be the removal of the "noise-gating" problem. Then with Ivory German D, I might finally be satisfied.


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