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I'm supposed to be on holiday - due at the pool soon! - so have been following but not participating. I have been playing TK Italian for some months, via an ES7. My background is over half a century of playing any number of APs and owning AP grands from 5'3'' to 9'. Apart from trying out Pianoteq, TK's Italian is the only s/w piano I have played.

There are two main aspects in moving from APs to DPs for me: playability and sound and the two cannot be completely separated unfortunately. I have found the ES7 to be very playable, re action and, largely, sound, except for lack of string resonance, which we are all familiar with in playing DPs. The Italian provides satisfactory resonance/sustain, for me as well as a satisfactory playing experience generally. In terms of sound I experience huge differences between headphones (Sennheiser 640s ?540s? can't remember) and the ES7's speakers. So I need a blend of TK and ES7 for playing through the speakers (sound feedback), whilst I can enjoy the Italian on its own through headphones. In terms of recording (i.e. pure sound considerations), I use the Italian on its own, but need to reduce the bass - quite considerably - to play through my domestic system. No problem through Audacity.

The limitation to the Italian is I suspect not due to the s/w, but to midi limitations. Small crescs and dims - over just a few notes - fall short of what I could do on an AP. Rightly or wrongly, I attribute this to having only 127 velocity levels and would therefore apply to any s/w piano. In other words, subtlety of touch is much greater on an AP.

Having said that, I have been very happy migrating to ES7/Italian from a lifetime of APs. One further point: I have a long history of being dissatisfied with one or more aspects of the APs I have owned. No instrument will be perfect, especially as we get used to it over time. So I am into living with the "good enough" principle. ES7/TK is certainly good enough and I intend adding the Bechstein and American when I get back home.

Depends on what's faulty about it. Most DPs are beyond all hope.

Depends also on how much you're musically into S&M or the whole martyrdom thing.

Most DPs are beyond all hope?

Guess that's right. I wonder where I got the idea that it was lossy. Well, good to know.

Sandalholme

could your share with us a demo of the True Keys Italian being played so soft, increasing, up to hard. Would be nice to listen the different tone/volume changes.

Could do this, but only when I get back to the UK next week.

Yes, right now he's at the pool according to his previous post. :P Enjoy!

Hi,
how can I do this trick : batch resave all the samples uncompressed ?
I have Vintage D, my laptop Cpu is a bit old now (core 2 duo) but I replaced the 5400 internal hard disk with a SSD.

Even the best are nowhere near the quality of PC/Mac offerings. Almost all are looped, which I suppose makes them borderline passable for playing in bars and such. Perhaps my expectations of the product category termed "digital piano" are too high.

i think your comment about the layers being blended is really significant, although i admit i don't know squat about the technical aspects. But a smooth transition from one layer to the other to my experienced player's but technical layman's ears is the ultimate answer, regardless of how many layers. i think it's why i have no use for playing the Kronos piano. I also agree with you that sampling every stinking key is like 21st Century Piano 101, and probably why i will choose a Kawai over Yamaha for a new slab.

The Ivory II German steinway has less layers than the American D, but- for the way I play- I like it better and that is all that really matters to me. I know the engineers will shoot me down for that.

As a side, i'm inclined to buy that bechstein. i got a factory full of software steinways in my digital warehouse here. Enough!! i like the subtlety i'm hearing, and the more compressed dynamics fits my style of pound/don't pound/ playing.

That is so well said. Acoustics are like people, aren't they? some days they say the right things, look pretty and smell good, and life is all smiley, and the next day they seem to get gas and need to take a shower. that could be driven by the changing environment they live in or the changing environment surrounding the player's ears, fingers and brain. Who knows. I like the "good enough" approach- probably the right philosophy for a lot of things in life.

May I say, dewster, I really appreciate your work in providing a platform for unbiased scientific evaluation (= objective) of DPs and all the information you (and many others) are providing about DPs. Really helpful for people on their way to buying a digital piano.

Too high expectations, well, I don't know, that is subjective. Maybe DPs should have come further, considering recent advancements in the world of digital. I remind myself that DPs are not "real" pianos, just emulators.

I recently watched a comparison video of Casio AP-450 and a concert grand and was surprised how close the AP-450 was to the real thing. The CA65 and CA95 Kawais also sound very realistic.

Edit: I also like to live by the "good enough" principle, as sandalholme puts it. The Kawai ES7 sounds like a great instrument.

You are quite welcome, I'm glad when the project can be a benefit to others.


Not to be contentious, but the Kraft Music videos make the lowly Yamaha P105 sound like a dream machine. You get it home and it's exceedingly obvious to anyone with a half-deaf ear that it's looped. Demo musicians (consciously or unconsciously?) are often remarkably good at hiding the otherwise glaring sonic imperfections of DPs. And a bit of reverb, either captured naturally in the room or added later, can conceal a multitude of sins. For these reasons I try to avoid demos, but it's difficult.

Would someone mind explaining what "SN" refers to?

Thanks

SN (SuperNATURAL) Roland's latest hybrid sound generation system - some synthesis, some sampling, some modelling. At least one SuperNATURAL piano is in all Roland DP's these days, I think. It is way better than their 'traditional' piano patches and is the most authentic, complex, and lively piano sound I've heard this side of a computer software generated piano.

Hi, I'm still waiting for the thumbs up before I go ahead and purchase .Has anybody got any demos other than the true keys website demos and opiniuns .

Dewster, I'v often wondered about the same, how all DPs can sound so good in the demos, entry level and higher priced alike. At least some of them must sound bad.

Since you mention the P105, I noticed the demo of the P85 sounded much better in the Kraft Music video, than it did in my home. I actually bought it after testing it, not having seen the demo at the time of purchase. Just made the observation afterwards. Not sure it would have changed my decision, since this was after all one of the lower priced digitals and you can't have all the world for few hundred dollars (otherwise nobody would buy the most expensive ones and higher prices must equate higher quality, at least to some extent.)

Still I wonder, how can they tinker with the recordings, without audiophiles discovering and exposing their methods? Maybe most people see through the marketing, and the resellers rely on the fact that the last fool is not yet born.

Joking aside, there should be strict rules how DP resellers can render the audio (like only through the internal recording equipment) or they'd be obliged to report in all demos, how the sound is recorded and remixed (if it is.)

Daz100, the following is an amateur recording of the True Keys American Grand. According to a disclaimer in the beginning of the video, the uploader is not affiliated with VI Labs, the maker of software piano.

Sorry I don't see a related link here other than your tube link which can't be it.

TheodorN, absolutely wonder the same thing. all i can figure is that amateurs don't add enough reverb or balance the EQ properly, nor do they get enough volume on the recorded tracks. and they probably don't use enough compression. i have noticed that the basic settings for dynamic control on the Ivory II pianos probably don't use enough compression for recording. I think using less dynamic range may lessen the playing experience, but it greatly improves the listening experience, at least on non-classical piano. That is where timbre changes at different velocity layers are really helpful- you can get the listener sensation of dynamic changes without that much actual volume change.