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Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Charles Cohen] #2059003
04/04/13 02:43 AM
04/04/13 02:43 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,815
Richmond, BC, Canada
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Charles Cohen Offline
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Comments:

a) I _thought_ I heard substantial differences, model-to-model, among the Roland "supernatural" primary "grand piano" sounds. But I was listening through the pianos' loudspeakers (or outboard amp/speakers) -- it could have been my imagination. And I may have accidentally had EQ or reverb enabled.

b) The adjustability of several Roland models is neat. With the "string resonance" effect at maximum (127), they had (roughly) as much resonance as the baby grand in the showroom. With the default setting (64 out of 127), the effect was weaker.

c) I was surprised that the Yamaha N3 showed no string resonance. I'd be interested in having results on the N1 and N2.

Thanks for your forbearance --

. Charles


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
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Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: Charles Cohen] #2059496
04/04/13 10:30 PM
04/04/13 10:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
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Richmond, BC, Canada
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Charles Cohen Offline
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More (and the last chapter of) "string resonance" tests, after a visit to a Kawai / Roland showroom:

[As before: (1) hold C below middle C, strike CEG above middle C; (2) Hold middle C/G/C, strike C below middle C]

Kawai:

. . CL26: (1) no (2) no

. . CS3: (1) no (2) no

. . CN24 (1) no (2) no

. . CN34 (1) bad implementation (2) bad implementation

. . CP119 (1) yes (2) yes, strong

. . CE220 (1) bad impelmentation (2) yes, strong

. . KDP80 (1) no (2) no

. . F120 (1) yes, weak (2) yes

. . MP6 (1) bad implementation (2) bad implementation

. . ES6 (1) yes, strong (2) yes, strong

Roland:

. . RP-301SB (1) yes (2) yes

. . RP301R (1) yes (2) yes

Let me describe Kawai's "bad implementation". When I held down low C, and struck high C/E/G, the only pitch that _really sustained_ was the high C. Holding down C, and striking high E/G, only the high E sustains. Holding down high G, _it_ sustains.

Holding down middle C/G/C, and striking low C, the only harmonic that sustains is middle C.

. . . That's not how an acoustic piano behaves.

That glitch was disappointing -- these were _not_ inexpensive DP's.

Next project:

. . . Build a testing machine to quantify "action feel".<G>

. charles


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2083001
05/15/13 09:21 AM
05/15/13 09:21 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 722
Atlanta, GA
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Jake Jackson Offline
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Atlanta, GA
Spectral panning is often discussed in these reviews. May I ask for a clarification? Is it correct to say that this term can be used in two ways:

1. The static differences in the frequencies on each stereo channel. (The direction in which the freqs remain panned throughout the length of the note.)
2. The dynamic changes in the frequencies present on each channel. (The way that some freqs may swing between channels or fade in and out of channels.)

In either case, is there research on this subject, pertaining to pianos, that someone could point me to? By which I mean studies that have analyzed notes on a real piano, looking at the degree to which the amplitude of freqs in each ear or channel seems to change as the note decays?

(Should I start a separate thread on this subject?)

Last edited by Jake Jackson; 05/15/13 10:38 AM.
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2083039
05/15/13 10:57 AM
05/15/13 10:57 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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dewster  Offline OP
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Northern NJ
From the Adobe Audition help file:

"Spectral Pan Display shows the pan (left‑right stereo) position of every frequency in an audio file, so you can visualize the sound locations in the stereo plane. The x‑axis (horizontal ruler) measures time and the y‑axis (vertical ruler) measures pan position, with the top of the display (‑100%) representing full left and the bottom of the display (100%) representing full right. Brighter colors represent louder audio signals. You can modify display settings for Spectral Pan Display using the Spectral Controls panel."

I haven't done a search, but there are likely few if any references out there with respect to spectral pan and pianos.

In terms of L/R pan, there are obviously multiple factors in play. The main one is how far left or right the physical strings being played are from the microphones (or your ears). The next would be phasing effects from unison strings playing nearly the same frequency slowly interbeating.

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Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2094250
06/03/13 12:57 AM
06/03/13 12:57 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 268
Swabia
C
Cmin Offline
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 268
Swabia
Hi!
I'm ready to send the FP-80 files....
Greetings


Cheers,
Lenny

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FP-80, synths, guitars, mics, MBP, interfaces, Voicelive 2, ableton, Pianoteq, nubert a-200
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2101196
06/11/13 09:07 PM
06/11/13 09:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 141
France
imyself Offline
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imyself  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 141
France
Hello,
i have VI Labs True Keys (the 3 pianos) ready to be upload...
Regards


Kawai VPC1/Synthogy American D/Pianoteq 5 Pro/Galaxy Vintage D

"Remember to take the time ... before time takes you"
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: imyself] #2101414
06/12/13 10:26 AM
06/12/13 10:26 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 80
Hamburg, Germany
H
Holger Stief Offline
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Posts: 80
Hamburg, Germany
Hey imyself, what perspectives did you sample?

I ask because I had already submitted the mix perspective of the three True Keys pianos back in February right after I got the suite, but unfortunately dewster is backlogged till the roof, so the analysis is still open. (My submissions from December aren't reviewed yet either... Ivory II American D, Galaxy The Giant and the Kawai CA95).

So if you have sampled other perspectives, it might be interesting to get them as well. I think dewster should decide in that case.


Pianist & Composer.
Steingraeber & Söhne C-212 CF, Kawai Novus NV10
VI Labs Ravenscroft, True Keys: Pianos; Garritan CFX Concert Grand, Synthogy Ivory II
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKKuqH6G1C9TuJosOx1dXaQ
https://holgerstiefpiano.bandcamp.com/
https://www.facebook.com/holgerstiefpiano
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: Holger Stief] #2101536
06/12/13 03:14 PM
06/12/13 03:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 141
France
imyself Offline
Full Member
imyself  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 141
France
Hello Aeons,
i send the player position for all 3 pianos.

(he do not ask me anything, truth is as i cannot sleep, i decide myself to do it... smile

PS: tonight i am a very happy because i just order a VPC1 and the vendor seems serious (but we never know) i may receive it next week

(for the CA65, i see in another life :))

Regards


Kawai VPC1/Synthogy American D/Pianoteq 5 Pro/Galaxy Vintage D

"Remember to take the time ... before time takes you"
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2151720
09/16/13 11:52 PM
09/16/13 11:52 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 82
H
helloworld1 Offline
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Posts: 82
I have recorded from my yamaha nu1. This is my first time to help the DPBSD project. Hopefully it work for you! Thank you for the wonderful project!

Download
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2Ipwyo9TOxYYUlCZ2JQWTl3R28/edit?usp=sharing

Last edited by helloworld1; 09/16/13 11:52 PM.
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: helloworld1] #2152222
09/17/13 02:31 PM
09/17/13 02:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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dewster  Offline OP
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Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by helloworld1
I have recorded from my yamaha nu1. This is my first time to help the DPBSD project. Hopefully it work for you! Thank you for the wonderful project!

Download
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2Ipwyo9TOxYYUlCZ2JQWTl3R28/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks helloworld1! I downloaded it and gave it a quick look. Levels are a bit low but SNR is good and it is in stereo so it is totally useable.

I can hear looping on the lowest C. The attack samples seem pretty long. No stretching except for maybe 2 notes (the upper notes are indistinct). Sympathetic resonance is good but could be stronger IMO. Evidence of maybe 4 layers.

I'll do a more in-depth review at some point (not sure when, kind of underwater at the moment).

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2152373
09/17/13 06:16 PM
09/17/13 06:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 82
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helloworld1 Offline
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Great! Thank you for the brief review and waiting for the full review. Take your time smile

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2181825
11/13/13 06:34 PM
11/13/13 06:34 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9
Banned
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careezma Offline
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9
Banned
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Last edited by BB Player; 01/08/14 06:22 PM. Reason: Changed link
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: TonyB] #2190344
11/30/13 01:59 AM
11/30/13 01:59 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 38
E
E. Christensen Offline
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E. Christensen  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 38
Wow- this is incredible stuff, now I just have to figure out how to use it!

E. Christensen

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2192390
12/04/13 01:11 PM
12/04/13 01:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
KAWAI ES100

mp3: http://www.mediafire.com/download/626c8pbyjmstt2k/
pix: http://www.mediafire.com/download/dmhk9i6tvcjjfb7/

---------------
- Kawai ES100 -
---------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dpbsd_v2.0_kawai_es100.mp3
- MIDI (USB) sequenced with Synthesia, audio capture / MP3 conversion with Audacity.
- Recorded by "Daniel Richter".
PROS:
- Passes the pedal sympathetic resonance test - the effect is visible and audible.
- Passes the quick partial damping test.
- Passes the late pedal partial damping test up to the test limit of 0.5 seconds.
- Passes the half pedaling test.
- Except for a stretch group of 2, all notes are sampled.
- This is most likely a smoothly blended multi-velocity sample set.
- Faint "loom of strings" sound with pedal down, "clunk" with pedal up.
- Key-up "clunk".
CONS:
- Fails the key sympathetic resonance test.
- Fails the silent replay test @ pedal up.
- Decay times over the full range are somewhat short (~1/2 Pianoteq).
- Attack sample lengths are (C1:C8): 1.8,1.4,1.3,1.9,1.6,1.4,0.9,? seconds.
- Loop sample lengths are (C1:C8): 1.4,0.7,0.65,?,0.63,0.65,?,? seconds.
- Obviously looped, lower and mid notes could benefit from longer decay loops.
- Partially damped notes don't sound "buzzy".
OTHER:
- Spectral signatures same as CN33, CA63, ES6 (same base sample set).
- Notes played @ vel=1 produce no sound.
- Dampered | undampered transition: F#6 | G6.
- Dynamic range 46dB (vel=1:127).
- MP3 levels: peak @ -0.2dB, noise floor @ -65dB.
- Date reviewed: 2013-12-03.


NOTE: Stripped down (text only) reviews from here on out to who-knows-when to hopefully enable me to dig out of my backlog and stay on top of things in this project.

MP3 DONORS: Feel free to reply here or via PM if you want anything added/changed with your DP review. In particular, personal observations regarding your DP are most welcome additions.

[EDIT]I should have noted that the analysis above was a collaborative effort between Daniel Richter and myself. Daniel's Audition-fu is quite impressive!

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2192440
12/04/13 02:54 PM
12/04/13 02:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 310
Czech Republic
H
Hookxs Offline
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Posts: 310
Czech Republic
I have a question regarding: 'Partially damped notes don't sound "buzzy".' How exactly are partially damped notes coded in MIDI? Can a note be partially damped forever (without ever being 'Off') or partially damped and then undamped without being played again? So far I lived under the impression that partial damping (not pedalling) is very limited, if not impossible on DPs. I apologise if this has been discussed, I obviously haven't read the whole thread.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: Hookxs] #2192562
12/04/13 07:04 PM
12/04/13 07:04 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline OP
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by Hookxs
I have a question regarding: 'Partially damped notes don't sound "buzzy".' How exactly are partially damped notes coded in MIDI?

It isn't coded directly by MIDI.

On a real AP if you play a note with the pedal down, then lift the key, the note should ring on. If you then partially lift the pedal, the string will buzz against the damper.

This same series of commands in MIDI - pedal down, note on, note off (usually note on with zero velocity), pedal partially up - can produce buzzy decay sounds if the DP supports this.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2192578
12/04/13 07:20 PM
12/04/13 07:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 310
Czech Republic
H
Hookxs Offline
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Czech Republic
I see. I thought you meant direct damping by the key itself without any use of pedal. On AP you can press a key and slowly lift it back until the damper starts touching the strings and I was curious if similar thing can somehow be achieved on DPs.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2192582
12/04/13 07:26 PM
12/04/13 07:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,004
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,004
Hamamatsu, Japan
Welcome back dewster!


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: Hookxs] #2192622
12/04/13 08:58 PM
12/04/13 08:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by Hookxs
I see. I thought you meant direct damping by the key itself without any use of pedal. On AP you can press a key and slowly lift it back until the damper starts touching the strings and I was curious if similar thing can somehow be achieved on DPs.

I see. You would need continuous position tracking of each key to do that, something DPs (outside of the VAX77 controller and perhaps the Yamaha AGs) don't do. (And even if they do it they probably can't / don't use the release information this way).

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #2192714
12/05/13 01:16 AM
12/05/13 01:16 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 38
E
E. Christensen Offline
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 38
I just have to say again that this is great information. I have shared it with some that I know. A wealth of information, that is to say the least!

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