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Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2187753
11/24/13 03:20 PM
11/24/13 03:20 PM
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BDB Offline
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Why not accept answers graciously?


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Re: Kawai experts [Re: BDB] #2187756
11/24/13 03:32 PM
11/24/13 03:32 PM
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Hakki Offline OP
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Originally Posted by BDB
Why not accept answers graciously?


What answer?

Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2187785
11/24/13 04:38 PM
11/24/13 04:38 PM
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new york city
James Carney Offline
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Hakki,

Where do you live? Perhaps we can suggest a technician that can help you.

BDB is right; even if I explain how I go about setting strings and pins, it won't necessarily be helpful to either you or your technician(s). I'm not sure it's even possible to explain things like this.

However, I think I can help you by again mentioning the following:

1. Are the perimeter plate bolts tight? (Only a qualified technician with the right tools can make this determination, by the way. Please do not attempt on your own.) Kawai grands often need these plate bolts snugged up, sometimes more than once. Because you live in a dry climate, I think loose plate bolts on your piano might be a possibility.

2. How is your humidity control? If the humidity around the piano varies considerably then no tuning will have a chance at being stable. Based on what you stated (35% RH), you are in a dry area, although you didn't say how low the humidity goes. It also sounds like you don't have a Dampp-Chaser system, so you may want to have one installed by a qualified technician. And again, if sun hits the piano, or if there is a heat register or radiator near the piano, this will work against tuning stability.

Your piano might also need a regulation touchup, and if certain aspects of this have slipped (loose action screws, letoff too far away, hammers too far from strings, poor hammer/string alignment and mating, poor keyframe bedding, compressed balance rail punchings resulting in inadequate key travel, etc.) this can easily result in a loss of power and efficiency which makes a solid tuning harder to accomplish.

Or it could be that you have not found the right technician who is capable of delivering a rock solid tuning. Or maybe it's a combination of the tuner, humidity control, and regulation issues with the piano.

If you are near the dealership where you purchased the RX-2, why not consult with them? Or contact Kawai for a referral to another technician.

My point in the earlier post is that this shouldn't be a complicated situation. Kawai RX series grands are solid pianos, they are not difficult to tune, they can be stabilized, and they can hold tunings well. Any piano when brand new can be a little bit unstable, but yours is now 8 years old, so it's probably plate bolts and/or regulation, humidity control, or technician ability/quality. Or a combination of the three.


Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/
Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2187787
11/24/13 04:40 PM
11/24/13 04:40 PM
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Hakki,

You can't learn to tune with your intellect, you have to experience it.

You can't expect a professional to take instructions from you that you received on a forum like this either.

You can't THINK your way through everything.


Tuner-Technician


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Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2187807
11/24/13 05:20 PM
11/24/13 05:20 PM
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James, first of all I would like to thank you very much for your detailed replies.

As for your questions:

I am in Ankara.
The humidity can go as low as mid twenties during hot summer days at an extreme.
There is a small low profile radiator under the window by the left side of the piano, but the piano is diagonal to the radiator and the closest it gets it about 1.5 feet at the left keybed end.
The sun does not hit the piano, the window is covered with shield curtains.

I will let the tuner check the perimeter bolts and the points about regulation and other things you have mentioned next time. At the moment I had two tunings in a month and I am not planning for another before six months.

Again thanks for your reply it was very informative and helpful.


Last edited by Hakki; 11/24/13 05:21 PM.
Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2187921
11/25/13 07:26 AM
11/25/13 07:26 AM
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France
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Originally Posted by Hakki
James, first of all I would like to thank you very much for your detailed replies.

As for your questions:

I am in Ankara.
The humidity can go as low as mid twenties during hot summer days at an extreme.
There is a small low profile radiator under the window by the left side of the piano, but the piano is diagonal to the radiator and the closest it gets it about 1.5 feet at the left keybed end.
The sun does not hit the piano, the window is covered with shield curtains.

I will let the tuner check the perimeter bolts and the points about regulation and other things you have mentioned next time. At the moment I had two tunings in a month and I am not planning for another before six months.

Again thanks for your reply it was very informative and helpful.



SO what where the corrective measures you did take, about that very low humidity ? Did any of those technicians told you anything about ?
DO you know what levels and variations are considered normal for a musical instrument ? With hard conditions, it is sure plate bolts are not tight today (also because the "selected hardwood" used for the braces and belly)

The piano never was covered by its guarantee, as I see it.

"Japanese pianos" mostly resist better to high humidity condition, in a very simplified point of view I have.

They use softer woods than European ones, but also woods that accept and release humidity more easily may be.

The usual "Japanese saw", and "japanese plane" are excellent tools, but if you use them on European woods the tools wear very fast. DIfferent climates and species.


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2187939
11/25/13 08:53 AM
11/25/13 08:53 AM
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Hakki Offline OP
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They all advised to put a shallow case filled with water under the piano all the time. That is what I did.

Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2187975
11/25/13 10:35 AM
11/25/13 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Hakki
They all advised to put a shallow case filled with water under the piano all the time. That is what I did.


I dont know , but you wrote that you did so at the demand of the last tuner, recently.

Anyway pianos that have suffered of very dry conditions are in need of screw tightening.


Looking up there : climate in Turkey

The conditions are not so much on the dry side.

Last edited by Olek; 11/25/13 10:41 AM.

Professional of the profession.
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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2188028
11/25/13 12:31 PM
11/25/13 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Olek
Originally Posted by Hakki
They all advised to put a shallow case filled with water under the piano all the time. That is what I did.


I dont know , but you wrote that you did so at the demand of the last tuner, recently.

Anyway pianos that have suffered of very dry conditions are in need of screw tightening.


Looking up there : climate in Turkey

The conditions are not so much on the dry side.


Fethiye is by the seaside.

Look for Ankara

Though that still seems reasonable but in house it is not the case. We live on the roof floor.

It was previously two or three vases (like those for small fish)filled with water. The last tuner said to put a single wide rectangular case. Otherwise there was always water under the piano right from the beginning.

I recently bought another hygrometer, nowadays it is around 35-40. The old one shows 28-33.

[Linked Image]

No, the date and time is not adjusted

Last edited by Hakki; 11/25/13 01:56 PM.
Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2188092
11/25/13 03:01 PM
11/25/13 03:01 PM
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Yes Hakki, you may want to check your hygrometers for accuracy.
Digital ones have a tendency to be mean on humidity level. sometime I am under the impression that under a certain low level they just amplify the dryness more and more.

However they see tho have a fair precision in the 50-60%range generally.

They can be verified by using a sealed plastic bag, containing a glass of water saturated with different salts.

Depending of the salt used you may read a certain amount of humidity.
For instance, table salt saturated water creates a 76% HR at 20°c. (68°F)

Potassium carbonate solution gives 43% HR at 20°c

Magnesium chloride 33 %

I suppose distillate water is better used for those low moisture tests.

Once checked you can apply corrections to the reading.

Hair hygrometers tend to be generous on the humid side (hence the instructions long time given to keep pianos in 50-60% HR.

[video:youtube]amSMJ2pUIdE[/video]

Last edited by Olek; 11/25/13 03:47 PM.

Professional of the profession.
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Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2188171
11/25/13 05:36 PM
11/25/13 05:36 PM
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Thank you very much Isaac!

I am now testing the old hygrometer as per the video you posted and will share the result tomorrow.

Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2188307
11/25/13 10:52 PM
11/25/13 10:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
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San Jose, CA
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"...There is a small low profile radiator under the window by the left side of the piano, but the piano is diagonal to the radiator and the closest it gets it about 1.5 feet at the left keybed end..."

That is pretty close. If you can do better than that, it would be a good idea. Such close presence to a radiator can, all by itself, challenge a piano's tuning stability. Call it 'small' and 'low profile' all you want, it is bad for a piano.

We did not need to wait until the end of such a long and abrasive thread to come to this confession, which should have been offered in the initial post.


Clef

Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2188388
11/26/13 01:31 AM
11/26/13 01:31 AM
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There is a wooden stripe curtain and a normal curtain between the radiator and the piano. How far should I move the piano?
At least 2 feet the closest point to the radiator?

Last edited by Hakki; 11/26/13 01:40 AM.
Re: Kawai experts [Re: Olek] #2188414
11/26/13 02:38 AM
11/26/13 02:38 AM
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CO, USA
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Originally Posted by Olek
Yes Hakki, you may want to check your hygrometers for accuracy.
Digital ones have a tendency to be mean on humidity level. sometime I am under the impression that under a certain low level they just amplify the dryness more and more.

However they see tho have a fair precision in the 50-60%range generally.

They can be verified by using a sealed plastic bag, containing a glass of water saturated with different salts.

Depending of the salt used you may read a certain amount of humidity.
For instance, table salt saturated water creates a 76% HR at 20°c. (68°F)

Potassium carbonate solution gives 43% HR at 20°c

Magnesium chloride 33 %

I suppose distillate water is better used for those low moisture tests.

Once checked you can apply corrections to the reading.

Hair hygrometers tend to be generous on the humid side (hence the instructions long time given to keep pianos in 50-60% HR.


This is indeed the way many professional calibration labs do it. Keep in mind that temperature while doing this must be very accurate, such as to 0.5°C or so.

Best wishes-


phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Toccata (G minor) BWV 915
(and trying not to forget the other stuff I know)
Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2188485
11/26/13 08:47 AM
11/26/13 08:47 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
new york city
James Carney Offline
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Originally Posted by Hakki
James, first of all I would like to thank you very much for your detailed replies.

As for your questions:

I am in Ankara.
The humidity can go as low as mid twenties during hot summer days at an extreme.
There is a small low profile radiator under the window by the left side of the piano, but the piano is diagonal to the radiator and the closest it gets it about 1.5 feet at the left keybed end.
The sun does not hit the piano, the window is covered with shield curtains.

I will let the tuner check the perimeter bolts and the points about regulation and other things you have mentioned next time. At the moment I had two tunings in a month and I am not planning for another before six months.

Again thanks for your reply it was very informative and helpful.



You're welcome.

I would try to locate the piano as far from the heat source (radiator) as possible. At least 5 or 6 feet, preferably 10 or more.

Placing water under the piano won't really do anything at all. It's the evaporative effect of the humidifying heater bar in a Dampp-Chaser system, along with the placement of the heater bar/pads near the soundboard that makes the system effective.

I hope you'll let us know how it turns out - if I were you I'd call Kawai to see if they can help you find someone who can go over the plate bolts/action/etc. Also, Kawai (along with most other manufacturers) recommend the DC system.


Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/
Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2188739
11/26/13 04:37 PM
11/26/13 04:37 PM
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Hakki Offline OP
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I have done the hygrometer calibration as described by the video Isaac has posted. Of course it might be as accurate because the temperature was obviously not stable at 0.5 degrees.

Yet still, it seems that my old hygrometer was probably reading about 10-12 points below the actual.
That explains the 9 point difference between the new and old hygrometers.

That is somewhat relieving, because that means the humidity measurements I was seeing at about twenties during the summer was actually at about thirties.

[Linked Image]

Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2188756
11/26/13 05:12 PM
11/26/13 05:12 PM
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Rochester MN
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The problem remains that ~30% RH is still too low for "good piano health."

The general recommendation of various piano builders is in the 40-55% range.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2188787
11/26/13 05:56 PM
11/26/13 05:56 PM
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30% is fine if it does not vary much.

I suspect that the biggest problem is a dearth of good tuners in Ankara. Sometimes you are just stuck with what is available.


Semipro Tech
Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2189041
11/27/13 05:03 AM
11/27/13 05:03 AM
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Pretoria, South Africa
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Keep in mind the issue of linearity.

If a hygrometer is calibrated at 75%, it's not necessarily calibrated at 25%.


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Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2189094
11/27/13 09:19 AM
11/27/13 09:19 AM
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I have read on a meteorology enthusiasts Web site, that a coefficient could be used to correct the reading, not just adding x%

But it sound more interesting to verify the accuracy in low moisture range directly.
Now I have no idea on how pure the water and chemicals have to be.

I suppose that the calibration would be more fast and more accurate if larger quantities of liquid where used.
I used table salt in a glass of water, in a plastic bag, had the correct reading after 2 hours +-.
With a larger air volume and smaller solution cap, as there, I am not surprised it is said one may wait up to 24 hours to stabilize the HR level...


Professional of the profession.
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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Kawai experts [Re: BDB] #2189096
11/27/13 09:21 AM
11/27/13 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by BDB
30% is fine if it does not vary much.

I suspect that the biggest problem is a dearth of good tuners in Ankara. Sometimes you are just stuck with what is available.


The one that tuned the KG2 some years ago knowns visibly how to set the pins and tune adequate unison.


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Kawai experts [Re: Olek] #2189148
11/27/13 11:45 AM
11/27/13 11:45 AM
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Hakki Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Olek
Originally Posted by BDB
30% is fine if it does not vary much.

I suspect that the biggest problem is a dearth of good tuners in Ankara. Sometimes you are just stuck with what is available.


The one that tuned the KG2 some years ago knowns visibly how to set the pins and tune adequate unison.


That tuner has moved to Istanbul since then.
Though my brother has not decided yet, he is considering to call him and pay for the extra travel expenses.

Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2189593
11/28/13 11:52 AM
11/28/13 11:52 AM
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Hakki Offline OP
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The new hygrometer is more accurate.
It reads 72% instead of 75%.

[Linked Image]

Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2189647
11/28/13 01:51 PM
11/28/13 01:51 PM
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How do you know that means it's more accurate?


Tuner-Technician


Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2189659
11/28/13 02:12 PM
11/28/13 02:12 PM
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Hakki Offline OP
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Sorry Jbyron, I will just post once to let you know.

I added you to my ignore list, after the last issue. I don't want to experience blood pressure rises in case by reading your posts. Also I don't wish my threads locked by moderators anymore.


Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2189678
11/28/13 02:59 PM
11/28/13 02:59 PM
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Olek Offline
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Originally Posted by Hakki
The new hygrometer is more accurate.
It reads 72% instead of 75%.



Helo, I have to look for the procedure, but there is a simple one that allow to correct the other readings, once the main error have been asseced

Good idea to call the tuner from Istambul, may be you could ask him to stabilise your piano , may be he have an idea about how to do so (even if that is not the kind of thing customers ask, it can be tempted, I would go for 2 tunings on 2 days, with the piano vigourously played in between)

Unless your piano have a real tuning problem it should begin to be stable by now. The KG2 are known for their robustness, now as the piano may have at last 30 years it is normal that the tuning stay put remarkably well.



Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Kawai experts [Re: Olek] #2189688
11/28/13 03:36 PM
11/28/13 03:36 PM
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Hakki Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Olek
Originally Posted by Hakki
The new hygrometer is more accurate.
It reads 72% instead of 75%.



Helo, I have to look for the procedure, but there is a simple one that allow to correct the other readings, once the main error have been asseced

Good idea to call the tuner from Istambul, may be you could ask him to stabilise your piano , may be he have an idea about how to do so (even if that is not the kind of thing customers ask, it can be tempted, I would go for 2 tunings on 2 days, with the piano vigourously played in between)

Unless your piano have a real tuning problem it should begin to be stable by now. The KG2 are known for their robustness, now as the piano may have at last 30 years it is normal that the tuning stay put remarkably well.



Actually, I am not sure my brother would have considered a tuning had he not broken a high treble string while playing recently.
When I heard that he was planning to call the tuner from Istanbul who had last tuned the piano more than 10 years ago, I offered him to arrange also for my piano and that we share the expenses.
But meanwhile I was suggested this last Russian tuner in Ankara as an aural tuner, and his fee was reasonable so I tried my chance, and you know the rest of the story. In fact my brother played my piano after the tuning, and he has still not dismissed the option of calling the Russian tuner either.
After the discussions here, I am now advising him to call the tuner from Istanbul. But of course it will be his decision at the end.

Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2189699
11/28/13 04:20 PM
11/28/13 04:20 PM
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the principle :

75 / 62 = 1.20

multiply the reading by 1.20 for that hygrometer

That is how the use of the obtained date is explained on a meteorology forum.

It is better to try to have calibration for the lower HR, if you can obtain the salts.

33 % Chlorure de Magnésium MgCl2
54 % Nitrate de Magnésium Mg(NO3)2

Your brother's piano is in need of maintenance, so it could be interesting to have a good technician.
He mai need hammer shaping/voicing, if not he will have broken strings again and again.
The real solution is often to change the last 2 sections of treble wire. (but now you better know a good tuner as the new wire ...)

Yours probably also need a few hours , if it was never done, each new piano need a visit after 3 years of use.

Just adequate regulation is yet a good protection against wire fatigue. The KG2 may not be in so bad condition as it hold well the tuning.
Usually slightly mis regulated heavily played pianos brake strings regularly.




Professional of the profession.
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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2189708
11/28/13 04:50 PM
11/28/13 04:50 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 3,586
H
Hakki Offline OP
3000 Post Club Member
Hakki  Offline OP
3000 Post Club Member
H

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 3,586
Thank you Isaac.

The new hygrometer read 72.
So the correction would be 75/72 = 1.04 at this range.
I will try to find the other salts for the lower value calibration.
Or maybe also buy an analog hygrometer as well?

Currently I am in a recovery period from right elbow ulnar nerve entrapment and medial epicondylitis. So I won't be playing for a couple months. I am planning for a voicing during the next tuning which is probably 6 months later(during season change).

Edit: I passed your suggestions about the KG-2 to my brother. Thank you very much for that.

Last edited by Hakki; 11/28/13 04:52 PM.
Re: Kawai experts [Re: Hakki] #2192256
12/04/13 04:17 AM
12/04/13 04:17 AM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 11
J
Jash Offline
Junior Member
Jash  Offline
Junior Member
J

Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 11
I have several clients with RX2's. Most of them are ok, but there's two that drift quicker than normal. In both cases air-conditioning is used in a small space (large bedroom sized rooms).

As others have said - frame bolts can be a cause of much tuning instability if not properly tightened. I'd also look at bedding the strings at the bridge and hitch pin.

Last edited by Jash; 12/04/13 04:19 AM.
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