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If as a beginner you are told to do something, and you are having trouble doing it, then you might go to a forum to ask for help with that thing. You are still trusting that you are supposed to be doing it. It is a huge paradigm shift to go from "help me do a thumb cross-over" to "should I be following instructions at all"? It hasn't even been a week since the question was asked. Paradigm shifts are very hard, because we always build ourselves on some premise. That's how we function.
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My first post shows that I first waited for teacher input, demonstrated by analogy how I interpreted the situation and offered an alternative suggestion. Was there something in my post to suggest I had made assumptions or something else to elicit his response? Just to let you know Bobpickle and zrtf90, I attend Yamaha Music School and I have a teacher, not personal because I am in a group of 6 ppl. I don't understand why this is a problem that a beginner asks for simple problems. Did my first post suggest that there was a problem in his asking for a solution? If I ever reach a certain level to be able to help, I'll read a post to understand it, not assume things. Now that the teachers have had some input here's an analogy to show how I read the OP: Did my analogy not show my attempt to understand the situation? Should I not teach in parables? Did my advice not come with sufficient sugar-coating? Was the advice inapplicable. Did it suggest he not question further if it didn't make sense to him? both of you (2 latter posts) <Bobpickle and myself> simply assumed that I'd demand techniques to learn What part of my response showed he was being demanding? What was wrong with the advice I gave that elicited such a rude response from him? How would you guys feel if you came into a new group as a newbie, asked a question, and got this kind of reaction? And what evoked this from you? It makes him appear to be silly, when he asked for advice. I don't see this. I simply offered advice. Does that suggest he's silly? Should we stop giving advice in case the recipient thinks we think he's silly?
Richard
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Were in I the situation of the OP, as a beginner having taken only a month of lessons, I would not have understood the parables in the way they were intended. The analogy to doing wheelies when learning to drive makes sense if you know that scales are advanced. If you think scales are basic beginner things, then it is confusing. The idea of someone doing wheelies when learning to drive is also a silly thing to be doing. If the OP had come in and said he wanted to play an advanced piece of music, then he might grin with chagrin at the wheely idea. But since he asked about something that appears basic (as presented in school) it will be confusing. You did get a reaction, which seemed confusing or unexpected. Can you see it from that perspective? I'm trying to help - you were perplexed by the reaction. Things come across differently depending on where you're coming from. I was in that position once, so I'm describing what I see from that angle - maybe I'm wrong.
The actual advice is spot on.
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I still fail to see how my post warranted insult. I can understand the OP not understanding the analogy. I cannot understand that Bob finding it amusing would be offensive. It wasn't intended to be amusing but was simply used to demonstrate my understanding. And it stated clearly that's what it was. I cannot understand how the OP's ignorance or confusion should imply that I was being unhelpful or making assumptions. That's all. Should I second guess future posters and qualify all the things my posts do and do not cover before I give an answer? Was I wrong in not taking into consideration all the garbage the OP would throw into the equation and assign his confusion to my being rude? Is that it? Should I add obiter dicta like "IMO" and "no offence intended but" to everything I post? Or can I expect a modicum of intelligence on the part of the reader that they may question or ignore what they don't understand before they assume their own infallibility and respond with insults? The actual advice is spot on. Thank you for this.
Richard
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I cannot understand how the OP's ignorance or confusion should imply that I was being unhelpful or making assumptions. I think keystring is saying the exact opposite of what you're presuming here, that it's not your fault at all; the OP simply didn't understand what you were saying because of a preconceived notion about the perceived difficulty of scales. I think if someone had said from the start that scales were among the most difficult technical feats, it may have made more sense to the OP, but the rest of us who are more experienced got exactly what you were saying.
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
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Hi Guys, I apologise if I upset someone with my answer. What I basically meant was claiming for a better approach to beginners and understanding, especially understanding because I don't really know, yet, what and how I should ask for help as a fresh piano player. I can only emphasize that I am doing my best. As to the example / analogy to my "fingering", one has to realise that when I trust I ask for something basic and fundamental and get the answer in form of analogy to ice-racing, then it may be read with implied meaning even being silly. I do believe that I should have had an argument about it. Perhaps the way I have answered was not appropriate. Then, I apologise for it, once again. It is true that I did believe scales exercises were for beginners. Otherwise, I would not even thought about them. Neither the books nor people in comments (Amazon) did emphasize the minimum experience with a piano. I have started with what I thought could be the best. In fact, I wonder if you are using the same book. "The Manual of Scales, Broken Chords and Arpeggios for piano" with introduction by Ruth Gerard - ABRSM and "The Complete Book of Scales, Chords, Arpegios & Cadences ...", Willard A. Palmer, Morton Manus, Amanda Vick Lethco. Also, what's more important from this discussion, I did not really realise that I could injure myself. Thank you very much for this valuable information. I am very happy I have opened this discussion. I have just realised the importance of the proper steps in right time. BTW, I have to admit am still confused about the fingering but I don't want to ask about it here. I will try to get help from the teacher I mentioned. Thank you
Zbigniew
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What fingering is troubling you?
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
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I still fail to see how my post warranted insult. Richard, this puts us in the same position, because you misunderstood my post and its intent, which was meant to be helpful, just like part of your earlier post may have been. I did not insult you and did not intend to do so, and your analogy of wheelies also was not of that nature. But where a person is coming from may make it seem so (in either case). I hope it's more clear now than it was. I see someone else tried to explain.
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It appears that throughout playing the scale your thumb is tense. Not just in crossing under, although you probably feel it more then. You will have to do some very slow work, one hand at a time. Play your first note of the scale, and then hold it down. Relax all of your fingers, and the one holding the key should remain firm, but not pressing too much - only enough to keep the key down. Of course, focus on the thumb relaxing. You can let it rest on the keys. Then play the next note and hold it, relaxing. Continue this but don't go any faster than you are able to fully relax. Get an idea of what it feels like to be relaxed while playing. This will be a process you will have to do with your pieces I'm sure, and it will take weeks, and even then, you may catch yourself doing it after that. Thank you for this clue. I'll try this asap. What fingering is troubling you? The cross over. I need to be shown that. Otherwise, I'll be doing this wrong way all the time. Thanks for asking.
Last edited by ZikO; 12/03/13 06:01 PM.
Zbigniew
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Ziko, on the surface, what you've been trying to do seems a simple standard thing. That's the fingering, the thumb passing under, etc. The fact that you are feeling some tension in the 4 to 1 crossover is also logical, since it's such a large distance. The thing is that 1. there is a lot more to it. When we play, our "playing mechanism" is more than just the hand or even the fingers. The whole body and all its joints are involved in a sense. This working together can make the difference between efficient easy movement, or possible injury. 2. Some older ways of teaching how to play have proven to be injurious, and they are outdated. There was a time, for example, that Chopin railed against it in his day. Some of the older books still teach this older way. (In fact, I saw a video by a teacher who taught it - made my hair stand on end. ). Your book isn't the same as the one by Cooke that I used while self-teaching, but possibly it could be similar. I think I recognize one author, who I think is of the older generation. Richard (Zrtf90) is more experienced than I am though I'm catching up rapidly. When he is suggesting that you first play pieces, this makes a lot of sense. In pieces, there is variety to the notes, and thus your hand keeps moving in different ways. In scales, the movement is constantly similar which doesn't do much to train your hands, and if your movement is not efficient, then you are drilling yourself into poor movement that becomes permanent. That is what I am getting out of right now personally. I think I'm saying the same thing Richard did, but using more words. Thumbs are marvelous things. The thumb has a huge powerful muscle at its base. In addition, we in the company of squirrels and monkeys have movable collarbones, which allow us to grasp things. The thumb is part of that too. So if you tense your thumb with that strong muscle, or misuse it in this complex manouver of the crossover, you're messing with quite a mechanism. Those who understand something about it saw you trying to do a rather complex thing where things can go wrong. Understandably for you they were "just scales". In fact at one point I wondered what all the fuss was about. Now I know better.
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Oh, goodie! I think we're all happy now then. Richard (Zrtf90) is more experienced than I am though I'm catching up rapidly. Except that one of us is under a little pressure now!
Richard
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I would suggest you drop the scale book for a couple of years and concentrate on pieces. Take up scales when you have a teacher and a year or two of playing experience. Hi zrtf90 I'd have just last question if I still may ask. When you say "concentrate on pieces" what do you mean by that? Can you elaborate on that? THanks ZikO
Zbigniew
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Since some dust has settled . . .
I watched myself playing scales, and thought about the mechanisms involved. Thoughts, for what they're worth:
1. In the right hand, B major is easiest to play. In the left hand, D-flat major is easiest to play. Each of those is a good place to start; neither is difficult for the "off hand". Neither scale is a typical "beginner's choice". But the _toughest_ scale is C major -- since there are no black keys, there's nothing to anchor the finger pattern.
2. Let's talk about the right hand, ascending. I don't just "pass the thumb under". There's a complex simultaneous movement involving moving the _whole hand_ sideways (to the right), with the wrist rotating around a vertical axis (counterclockwise) at the same time. And as the thumb is being "passed" (and strikes its key), the wrist rotates back (clockwise) into a position that sets up fingers 2 and 3 (and 4) for their keys.
That's how _I_ do it, anyway. I don't know if it corresponds to any of the authorized methods. And I haven't checked my copy of Cooke.
If you're having trouble, this is something you _really_ want to learn from a good teacher! There are lots of things that can go wrong.
I have a bone to pick with "Don't practice scales -- practice pieces!".
Lots of classical pieces are _loaded_ with scales! Just look at Mozart's piano sonatas as an example.
When learning (and playing) that music, it's a real help to be able to say:
. . . "Oh -- D major, ascending -- I know how to play that!"
So "scale practice" does more than develop finger and hand and arm technique -- it gives the musical mind something to key into.
. Charles
PS -- disclaimer: I don't teach, and am coming back to piano after a long layoff.
. Charles --------------------------- PX-350 / Roland Gaia / Pianoteq
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1. When crossing, twist less and squeeze the thumb more.
Omg, NO!!!!!!Put tension in the thumb, and you have put tension everywhere. I know what you are talking about. I have had to work very hard with my teacher to overcome the effects when I was without a teacher. I thought that scales, at least, were "safe", if I had a "good book". What you describe is one of the things I did and undoing the habit of tension in the thumb has been one of the hardest things in remediation. I apologize. I should have been more specific. I did not mean to always have tension in the thumb. I meant that when one desires to cross the thumb under, one should at that moment squeeze the thumb underneath the palm of the hand. By "more" I meant not to add additional squeezing force, but rather to use thumb movement more than wrist twisting.
Heather Reichgott, piano
Working on: Mel (Mélanie) Bonis - Sevillana, La cathédrale blessée William Grant Still - Three Visions
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I was a bit melodramatic in my reaction, hreichgott. I'm overcoming a number of things that are related to the thumb. I do know what you mean. Verbs can give imagery which can lead to..... I know what you intend to say.
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Hi ZikO, I'm glad we've cleared the air. There's no limit on the questions. Fire away! The playing mechanism grows best when the note playing is done in a variety of ways and the fingers don't always play from directly over the note. You play a bit one day and a bit the next day and your brain develops ways, while you sleep, of accomplishing these tasks with efficiency. A natural, efficient and versatile technique. If beginners play too much too soon they tend to practise the same things over and over. This ingrains their best attempt at a technique and is seldom an efficient or natural one. It can create tension and risks severe injury. If you play more than 20 minutes a day in the first year play as much different stuff as you can building your reading more than your fingers. In your first few years you don't need to build your sight reading skills too much until you have a playing mechanism that can respond so a line or two of each piece RH only and another line or two LH only is perfectly adequate. Playing one hand at a time makes more advanced pieces (for a beginner) more accessible and appropriate as supplementary material. For the first year or two simple material will offer the best chance of a good technique. You can concentrate on making music. Playing and shaping the phrase. No having to overcome awkward stretches or movements that will hinder technical development. Concern yourself less in the early years with finger gymnastics, these skills will come with time, the slower, the more natural and efficient. A really good teacher will speed up the process tremendously but a lesser one will put you on scales and Hanon too soon or without sufficient instruction. Concern yourself more with making music for that is the absolute essence of good piano technique. Worry not about knocking out Jingle Bells with the left and right hand in synch but more about playing Beethoven's Ode to Joy one note at a time in the style of an opera singer. Or play a lullaby so gently and sweetly it won't disturb a sleeping infant. You get the idea? Piano playing is a technique. A learnable skill. You don't have to start at an early age. You can take it up in retirement and still progress at a good rate. You can start now, drop it for a few years and pick it up quickly again later on. Only the World Class prodigies need be advanced by the time they reach their teens. Loads of us drive to the shops. Few get to drive in Formula 1. The concert platform is for the chosen few. Anyone can get to the standard required for Bach and Mozart. Only the equivalent of Olympic athletes will manage the late sonatas of Beethoven and the concert études of Chopin and Liszt. There's no harm in trying but there may be harm in trying too soon. A method book is a good source of material if the material is what you want to play. Alfred's is good for chords and accompaniment. Faber's is better for classical ambitions. Thompson's is more versatile musically but quite concentrated. I've heard good reports of Hal Leonard's books. There is no best method book. Two or three running concurrently would be my preference with Beyer's Op. 101 (free from IMSLP) as supplementary material if you're heading in the solo piano direction. After a year or two when your technique has developed enough you will be looking towards taking up scales and other technical exercises and spreading out your choice of material. Classical or solo piano training begins with Bach. Bach is the foundation of modern keyboard technique whatever keyboard you're into, piano, organ, synth, etc. and whatever style of music. His music will work your fingers in ways no other composer will. He'll work your brain into a tizzy too! His work begins with the Anna Magdalena Notebook (not all his material but his choice of teaching material), the little preludes, the two then three part inventions, the suites and partitas and finally the Well Tempered Clavier. By the time you start the two part inventions you can profitably investigate Scarlatti. The first composer to write specifically for the keyboard and still rarely surpassed. Despite being written for the harpischord it translates beautifully to the modern piano. Modern pianoforte technique, arm playing over finger playing, began with Clementi and his sonatinas, as well as those by Kuhlau, Diabelli, Dussek and Benda are good vehicles for learning a variety of touches, scale, arpeggio and broken chord patterns, trills, double notes and chords. They will also help you in understanding, studying and appreciating musical form, using drama and contrast in the same piece and prepare you for the works of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and Schubert. The Romantic composers offer shorter pieces, challenging your ability to encapsulate an emotion in a short space of time. They will give a wider range of rhythmic patterns, key changes and chromatic material. The usual starters in the Romantic line are the Album's for the Young/Pieces for Children by Schumann, Tchaikovsky, Bartok, Kabalevsky et al. Most people set their sights on the four great Romantics, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Schumann and Liszt, before the late Romantics and nationalist composers, Brahms, Grieg, Tchaikovsky, Debussy, etc. Is that elaborate enough?
Richard
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Richard, why didn't you write this post two years ago when I was starting? I kind of figured out these things by myself but with much struggle. Now I should frame it and hang it above my piano.
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Hi ZikO, I'm glad we've cleared the air. I am happy, too Is that elaborate enough? Not only does it elaborate I think, it simply explains everything I need to know at this stage. I'm happy I've read it because now I can see I was falling into the same trap as all beginners. Unfortunately, it is not obvious when you are a beginner. I am going to take your notes and start looking for that material I should start with. The teacher gives us a song or two (pieces) per week but I can see I can learn them fairly quickly. I think I could do slightly better than that. Many thanks for this. ZikO EDIT: Your post can be valuable for the others. Perhaps it should go sticky!
Last edited by ZikO; 12/04/13 07:08 PM.
Zbigniew
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Richard - Thanks for your posts in this thread - all very interesting. And you've just helped me understand my own teacher better.
"There is more to this piano playing malarkey than meets the eye" - adultpianist
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Thank you, Diana, ZikO and bolt, for your responses. Sorry I was slow, Diana, but I wasn't on PW two years ago! I have a bone to pick with "Don't practice scales -- practice pieces!".
Lots of classical pieces are _loaded_ with scales! Just look at Mozart's piano sonatas as an example. This advice was directed at a beginner, Charles, not a blanket statement. I'm not against scales, per se, I just think they're a poor choice of material for beginners that haven't yet acquired sufficient technique to do them properly or safely. I think scales and arpeggios are excellent material - if they're done in the right way and for the right reasons. But since you've raised the concern... ...I'm happy to pick bones over it! Yes, let's look at Mozart's K. 545. Look at the scale passages, M5-10, M35-41 and M46-55. What do we to when we learn to play this piece, regurgitate our scales in that same old humdrum clickety-clackety way? Or do we spend a little extra time making them a touch more musical, smoother and more fluent for this particular piece? And do use the same helpful fingering we learned in our scales? No. No we don't. Now if we'd learnt our scales to familiarise ourselves with fingerings we'd have wasted our time. If on the other hand we'd learnt more versatile fingerings from our pieces and began to use a restricted set of those for our scales... Far, far better to practise scale passages for a specific piece of Mozartean delight than mechanical practise outside it. Learn the D minor scale by practising Bach's 4th invention where they can be played with a rounded and reverent finger. Let them flow like oil for Mozart, drip like honey for Debussy, dance like fairies on thin ice for those passages Mendelssohn is famous for and resound with an elemental force for Beethoven. Match your scales to the pieces you're learning and practise them the way you play your pieces. Don't play your pieces the way you practise your scales! When your technique has developed enough you can profitably use scales to hone a small part of it but you can't build an all-round technique from scales. That's not their purpose nor their main benefit. You don't sharpen knives on a steel, you sharpen them on a stone. You hone them on a steel so that they won't need sharpening again too soon. A steel is useless on a blunt knife. Scales are like a steel that must be used regularly and often to keep our technique in good shape - once it's been sharpened. But they're useless for building our technique in the first place.
Richard
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