Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Do you sing in your piano teaching?

TimR, as a principle that is a gem of wisdom that should be framed. Why, when, and probably testing if it works the way we think it does.

No one has touched upon the problem I brought up. Teacher sings, student learns that singing is good, student picks up habit, a decade or more later you have Zimerman, Gould or someone else "emoting" with incredibly annoying humming...

I like the humming.

I hope that this is before they play, rather than while they are playing.

Another purpose in singing is to encourage students to sing along when they play which is soooo helpful for aural, sight-singing and internalising the melody.

Apparently everyone else here does too.

Why? This is while they play.

My piano teacher sings at various times. Most often she'll sing the top line when I'm sight reading the bottom to help me hear relationships. As for pitch, she sings well enough to get paid to sing back up for local working bands. Both my recorder teacher and my cello teacher sang. I asked them both why they did that and they both answered that whenever I had a question about phrasing/interpretation (of a melody) line and lacking any other direction, I could never go wrong aping how it would sound when sung by a good vocalist. My recorder teacher who is also my recorder group conductor frequently sings at us to get us together and to get us away from the pedestrian phrasing that results from sight reading unfamiliar pieces.

Gary D, the humming didn't bother me but that's some great playing. We, the player and I, also share initials in our names. I rather enjoyed the almost baroque touch and the clarity of voices ala Gould. Oh that's right he hummed as well. They might be on to something. I'll think I'll start humming when I knock out the easy movement of Le Couppey in C later today. Seriously now, your adult student is precious in that there are damn few to go around and as you know, they quit as easily as flies land on cows. This one sounds like she's wound a little tight. Give the singing a rest. Let her get comfortable while you get a better handle on her personality and reintroduce it as needed after explaining to what purpose you're doing so.

regards

KZ

I'm not sure Zimmerman or Gould picked that habit up from the teachers.

All my accompanying teachers made me hum or sing the vocal/instrumental line, or "moo" the phrase to feel the breathing (that was Gwen Koldofsky- she made everybody do it). My first teacher made me sing all the voice parts in the fugues I studied with her.

However, none of that encouraged me to sing while I was performing. Of course, I think I might have gotten hit if I had, so I made sure I didn't. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have actually done it, but they sure acted like they would.

The one thing I can't do, though, is stop counting while my students play. It requires a terrible effort to just keep it to myself...

The only thing that we know is that she is a beginner, sings in a choir, and told her teacher that his singing broke her concentration. There is no way that you can tell her emotional state from that single piece of information.

A few years ago I had a conversation with some teachers about feedback from students. I had though that a "good student" silently follows instructions. I learned the (many) teachers want feedback on what does and doesn't work, because otherwise they are working in the dark. This altered my model of "effective student behaviour". It is a delicate balance.

This student has told her teacher how the singing affects her. He may decide to advise her about it, explore it with her - do any number of things. It is also plausible that if she is a beginner, that trying to handle coordinating the piano keys, the notes, and also deal with singing, may be too much for her to handle. That is not a matter of being "wound tight", but of what she is capable of doing because of the level she is at.


That is debatable, and above all, it is not pertinent. Either something works, or it doesn't work. Either a difficulty stated by a student is valid, or not valid. What happens statistically has no effect on the choices a teacher might make in a given situation.

I'm not either.

But I do believe that people who are taught to sing along with themselves cannot easily turn off the habit.

I was a brass player, so internalizing lines was automatic. I did not have to sing to feel the air. Perhaps it is different for people who play another instrument.

I don't remember any of the older pianists (Horowitz, Rubinstein, Schabel) humming, so I don't think it is necessary.

Bernstein was another hummer.

I do the same thing!

You're sounding a little wound up yourself. I was being glib and you're reading too much into it. In the end I counseled Gary to use patience and get a better read on the situation. One of the reasons is that adult students are few and far between and they can frequently take hours that children can't. They also sometimes provide an intellectual stimulation different from child students.

Kurtz, I assume you're addressing me.

Ok. (?)

She is Peter's student.

One of the reasons for what? (Not catching it).

Interesting thread thus far. I wonder why no one has mentioned playing along with a student (although KurtZ comes close)? Many of us have two studio instruments and use our piano to lead the student, steady a beat, help the student with phrasing, dynamics, etc., etc. Teachers of solo instruments (strings, brass, reeds, etc.) usually play along with the student. How is singing different? When I sing along with a student's playing, it is to show them the expression I want coming from their playing, or to help them in some other way.

Peter, I don't feel that it's a power issue in any respect, but rather teaching by leading. This can be explained easily to a student, adult, teen or even younger. They need to develop their listening skills to be successful as a musician, and as they hone in on these skills being able to differentiate what you're doing from what they're doing is invaluable.

OTOH, if you're just idly humming along with the student, that might imply inspiration from their playing, and hopefully, that's the intent! Otherwise, as Gary feels, I'd drop it, and pronto.

I do sign to give a better understanding of the phrasing, breathing, and of course I count out loud. BUT I can stop...

With piano it's difficult to give the idea of phrasing... but when singing it's "dead easy" (Morodiene will be all over me for this! ). Thus my singing in class.

When I mentioned the power dynamic concept, I didn't explain my ambivalence on this issue. Part of me cheers this student who says, in essence, "Cut out that singing. You might think it's helpful, but it isn't. It is just undermining my piano concentration."

Another part of me thinks, "This student is paying me to immerse her in music for an hour a week, and if I feel singing might help her, then I will jolly well sing. She has to trust the environment I create."

And I do know that I never would have had the nerve to tell one of my teachers to modulate their teaching style to accommodate me. I was a very compliant pupil - both as a child and as an adult - and more respectful of the customary power imbalance in the piano studio.

But times change, and teaching changes. It's also just interesting to be rebuked by a student, since this doesn't happen too often.

Peter, the first time I read your OP, what I read is that she was telling you that your singing was making it hard for her to concentrate on playing for you. (That also seemed plausible to me, if she was a beginner.) Reading it the second time, this stands out:

So you're not seeing it as her giving you feedback on that you might use as a teacher (that she can't concentrate) but rather that she is taking over and telling you what to do. Is this Does she need your guidance on what her role is? Do you, in fact, want to know this kind of information or do you want to draw your own conclusions? If lessons are new to her, she may not know how to act, or that you do have a purpose.

Do you want to hear anything - and if so, what kinds of things? These are things I wrestled with at one point myself. I was the student who kept all questions to myself for the first few years - some I shouldn't have.

I wonder if she knows you felt rebuked.

Oh, but I did!

I logged in to "like" this reply.

Whether she is trying to "take over" will probably become more apparent as lessons go on, because if that's the case she will do so in other ways too.

Though I have to say, if my teacher started to sing along with me, I would probably feel the same way as your student, and I'd also ask her not to. She does sometimes hum when I get stuck on the next note, because she must think it helps me find it... It doesn't, truthfully it actually makes me a bit stressed and takes me longer to look at the page and think because I'm distracted by it. But it's such a small thing that I leave it and let her carry on thinking it's helpful. If I she sang too though it would just be too much and I'd have to say so. I don't see a problem in your student telling you what she does and doesn't find helpful.

Which will gain the bigger advantage? Insisting on doing it because you think it's for the best, or listening you what your student wants?

But here is a counter-question: how does the student know what's best for them? Are they experts in playing piano that they can dictate how they are taught? What are they paying the teacher for, if not to teach in the manner they feel will be the best for the student?

The teacher humms the note for you to teach you to use your ears to help you find the note. She does it because at some point this is what *you* should do to help you find a note faster. Learning to associate the sound of a pitch to a key on the piano is extremely helpful, but a skill that takes time to develop. She's not doing it to fluster you, but to help train your ears.

I agree with keystring, depending on how this was said it could be very well the adult student taking over. Adults are often used to being in charge of things - especially ones who are in management positions or teachers (yes, we are often the WORST students LOL). An adult has no problem talking to a teacher in that manner.

I have had children say that to me at times when I sing or play along with them too, and I explain to them the reason why I'm doing it just as I would to an adult. However, I think adults ask more "why" and need more explanation than a child normally does. Yes, it's more time-consuming, but after a while they will trust you more and not need the explanations, then the questions are more out of curiosity.