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#2189980 - 11/29/13 08:50 AM Tuning A4  
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Hakki Offline
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Do you tune it against a tone or just by directly measuring it?

And why do you prefer your method over the other?

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#2190080 - 11/29/13 01:25 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]  
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DoelKees Offline
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Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted by Hakki
Do you tune it against a tone or just by directly measuring it?
Directly measuring it with an ETD is probably the most common method. Orthodox aural tuners insisting on the ancient tuning fork shouldn't just ping the fork and make A4 beatless as that is not accurate enough and use interferometry against the 5th partial of F2 or the 7th of B1.
Originally Posted by Hakki
And why do you prefer your method over the other?
Aurally my method (to pass the PTG test in case I ever want to) is to use two tuning forks, one at 444Hz and one at 436Hz and tune A4 equal beating (at 4bps) to both forks. I prefer that because it's easier.

Kees

#2190108 - 11/29/13 02:28 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: DoelKees]  
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SMHaley Offline
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Seattle
I measure it with my laser guided digital metric tape measure with false beat offset calibration, custom stretch scale compensation, simultaneous back scale harmonic tuning, floating aliquot pitch meter, 657 temperment reference template including reverse well and Quantz/Handel Enharmonic Baroque VI temperament.

(Must be suffering from turkey overdosing)


PTG Associate
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AA Music Arts 2001, BM Organ, Choral 2005


Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single
#2190127 - 11/29/13 03:50 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]  
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Supply Offline
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What, you are still working with that antiquated stuff????
Maybe you are just too much of a Luddite to embrace the neutron beam, carbon nano-tube technology for setting A4...

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#2190166 - 11/29/13 06:13 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]  
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Jbyron Offline
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I set A4 with two hair dryers and a weed wacker.


Tuner-Technician


#2190167 - 11/29/13 06:17 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]  
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I set A4 between G#4 and Bb4.


Semipro Tech
#2190171 - 11/29/13 06:22 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]  
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Hakki Offline
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Sorry, I hadn't thought it would be such a scaring question.

#2190181 - 11/29/13 06:38 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]  
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pyropaul Offline
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Originally Posted by Hakki
Sorry, I hadn't thought it would be such a scaring question.


It's a pointless question. How does it matter to you, so long as A4 is accurately at the pitch you require (most likely 440Hz in North America).

For what it's worth, I tuned an old console that had been in storage for 8 years last weekend and set it using my brain's internal pitch reference. When I tested it against a real 440Hz reference, it was bang on the money. Luck? Probably, but very satisfying nevertheless.

#2190185 - 11/29/13 06:45 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: pyropaul]  
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Hakki Offline
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Originally Posted by pyropaul
Originally Posted by Hakki
Sorry, I hadn't thought it would be such a scaring question.


It's a pointless question.


Yet, it is still scaring enough that you can't provide a real answer.

#2190189 - 11/29/13 06:52 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]  
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pyropaul Offline
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Montreal
Originally Posted by Hakki
Originally Posted by pyropaul
Originally Posted by Hakki
Sorry, I hadn't thought it would be such a scaring question.


It's a pointless question.


Yet, it is still scaring enough that you can't provide a real answer.


I told you how I did it - I just used my sense of where it should be and then found that I was correct. Otherwise I would have either used a fork (which I didn't have to hand) or Tunelab on my laptop which was not running at the time. Later, when I booted it up, it was right on the money.

Last edited by pyropaul; 11/29/13 06:52 PM.
#2190196 - 11/29/13 06:57 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: pyropaul]  
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Hakki Offline
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Originally Posted by pyropaul
Originally Posted by Hakki
Originally Posted by pyropaul
Originally Posted by Hakki
Sorry, I hadn't thought it would be such a scaring question.


It's a pointless question.


Yet, it is still scaring enough that you can't provide a real answer.


I told you how I did it - I just used my sense of where it should be and then found that I was correct. Otherwise I would have either used a fork (which I didn't have to hand) or Tunelab on my laptop which was not running at the time. Later, when I booted it up, it was right on the money.


Yeah, but the question is about your preferred method, and why you prefer that method.
Still you didn't answer that.

#2190199 - 11/29/13 07:03 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]  
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Minnesota Marty Offline

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Rochester MN
Here we go again.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2190203 - 11/29/13 07:12 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]  
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David Jenson Offline
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Maine
Not me! I'm not going there. 'No sir! 'Give away my trade secrets? Not on your life! Get your own neutron beam thingie like Jurgen uses and struggle with that. I'll be light years ahead of you and laughing all the way.

'Sorry, Jurgen. You set me up. wink


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
#2190209 - 11/29/13 07:20 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Minnesota Marty]  
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Hakki Offline
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Here we go again.


Not quite.

We are rather "stuck".

#2190215 - 11/29/13 07:30 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]  
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Mark Cerisano Offline
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Hakki,

In case you haven't figured it out, very few people are taking you seriously because of your history on the forums.

I PMed you about piano tuning and why you were interested, and you made it clear that you were not interested in learning piano tuning (after a few more cryptic PM's) and that you are a staunch advocate of electronic tuning devices.

You even said ETD's "have outgrown aural tuners in every practical way.", which I'm sorry to tell you, says more about your current understanding of piano tuning than you are aware.

And BTW, I posted some pretty specific questions to you about the limitations of ETD's, which you neglected to answer.

Now all your cryptic questions about aural tuning techniques makes sense to me (and others now) as it seems you are setting traps to try and make aural tuners look stupid. Sorry, that's just the way it looks to me.

But, I'm always ready to be corrected.

Let's keep it friendly.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
#2190224 - 11/29/13 08:03 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Mark Cerisano]  
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Hakki Offline
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Mark, thank you for being outspoken.

You know why I am here?

Yes, you are correct I don't have any plans to learn how to tune. That is both unpractical and risky.

OTOH, you are also correct that your assessment needs corrections.

Contrary to what you have perceived, I am both interested in aural and ETD tuning.

In fact, I sought for an aural tuner to retune my piano after it was experimentally tuned with the Ultratune software.

Unfortunately, the tuner whom I expected to tune my piano aurally insisted to tune with Tunelab to my dismay. Well, as I said earlier, he was a senior person and I did not want to argue with him.

I still want my piano to be tuned aurally. Unfortunately none of the available tuners here tune aurally.

There is one tuner, who has tuned my brother's piano aurally 10 years ago. But he has moved to another city since then. Even then, I am not sure whether he is still tuning aurally after 10 years.

As you might have guessed, since the purchase of my dream grand piano in 2005, I could not get a solid, stable, nice sounding tuning yet.

So, in a way I am here to commiserate with.



#2190230 - 11/29/13 08:23 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]  
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Withindale Offline
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Hakki

Here's a diversion for you. The BBC broadcast it this week. Pianists show up around 18.30.


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
#2190233 - 11/29/13 08:28 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]  
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Hakki Offline
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BTW, why I asked this question?

I still have my hopes that I can persuade one of the tuners here to tune aurally.

Also, with all my courage I will try to present them the translations of both the Steinway temperament and the contiguous thirds temperament (from Bill Bremmer's article).

Since the Steinway temperament seems more prone to cumulative errors, I will suggest the tuner to tune with the contiguous thirds method.

I understand that, the PTG exam requires the tuning of A4 within 3 cents against a tone.
But these tuners in my town are accustomed to using their ETDs for setting the A4.
So, I thought it would be appropriate to skip the aural tuning of A4 for an aural tuning using the contiguous thirds method.

But I am not sure.
Maybe there is a reason as to why the PTG is still requiring it.
Hence my question about the tuning of A4.

So, please everybody, don't seek for any concealed thoughts behind my questions.

#2190237 - 11/29/13 08:35 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Withindale]  
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Hakki Offline
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Originally Posted by Withindale
Hakki

Here's a diversion for you. The BBC broadcast it this week. Pianists show up around 18.30.


We had played that with my brother with an amateur orchestra.
It was even broadcast on the national TV, with explanations narrated for the kids.

#2190273 - 11/29/13 10:00 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]  
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Grandpianoman Offline
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Portland, Oregon
Allemande left with the old left hand, honey turn right with a right and left grand.................I have NO idea why I just thought of that now...must be the lack of turkey today......

Last edited by Grandpianoman; 11/29/13 10:05 PM.
#2190284 - 11/29/13 10:34 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]  
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Gerry Johnston Offline
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Haverhill, MA
Originally Posted by Hakki
BTW, why I asked this question?

I still have my hopes that I can persuade one of the tuners here to tune aurally.

Also, with all my courage I will try to present them the translations of both the Steinway temperament and the contiguous thirds temperament (from Bill Bremmer's article).

Since the Steinway temperament seems more prone to cumulative errors, I will suggest the tuner to tune with the contiguous thirds method.

I understand that, the PTG exam requires the tuning of A4 within 3 cents against a tone.
But these tuners in my town are accustomed to using their ETDs for setting the A4.
So, I thought it would be appropriate to skip the aural tuning of A4 for an aural tuning using the contiguous thirds method.

But I am not sure.
Maybe there is a reason as to why the PTG is still requiring it.
Hence my question about the tuning of A4.

So, please everybody, don't seek for any concealed thoughts behind my questions.


Hakki -
Given your posts on this forum I'm not surprised that you are having difficulty finding a tuner. If a customer was so arrogant/foolish as give me instructions as to the best way to set a temperament I'd be out the door in a heartbeat. Experience teaches that some customers are just way too difficult to deal with. Either learn how to tune yourself or hire a professional and LEAVE HIM/HER alone - no instructions, no B.S., don't tell a pro. what YOU think is the best temperament sequence. You are not qualified to have an opinion on this. A paying customer is always qualified to judge the results - NEVER the process.


Gerry Johnston, Registered Piano Technician
Haverhill, MA
(978) 372-2250
www.gjpianotuner.com
#2190299 - 11/29/13 11:12 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]  
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phacke Offline

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CO, USA
You can also compare your A4 with the tone here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_dial_tone.ogg

Though it also as F4 mixed in (two tones for the price of one! lucky day)

Best wishes-

Last edited by phacke; 11/29/13 11:13 PM.

phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Toccata (G minor) BWV 915
(and trying not to forget the other stuff I know)
#2190301 - 11/29/13 11:23 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Gerry Johnston]  
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David Jenson Offline
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Maine
Originally Posted by Gerry Johnston


Hakki -
Given your posts on this forum I'm not surprised that you are having difficulty finding a tuner. If a customer was so arrogant/foolish as give me instructions as to the best way to set a temperament I'd be out the door in a heartbeat. Experience teaches that some customers are just way too difficult to deal with. Either learn how to tune yourself or hire a professional and LEAVE HIM/HER alone - no instructions, no B.S., don't tell a pro. what YOU think is the best temperament sequence. You are not qualified to have an opinion on this. A paying customer is always qualified to judge the results - NEVER the process.


That post nailed it. Don't EVER try to instruct a professional tuner how to tune your piano! 'Period. No matter how much you think you know, it won't be enough, and you'll loose your tuner. In those circumstances, I'd probably beat Gerry out the door.


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
#2190307 - 11/29/13 11:34 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Gerry Johnston]  
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Jbyron Offline
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Originally Posted by Gerry Johnston

Hakki -
Given your posts on this forum I'm not surprised that you are having difficulty finding a tuner. If a customer was so arrogant/foolish as give me instructions as to the best way to set a temperament I'd be out the door in a heartbeat. Experience teaches that some customers are just way too difficult to deal with. Either learn how to tune yourself or hire a professional and LEAVE HIM/HER alone - no instructions, no B.S., don't tell a pro. what YOU think is the best temperament sequence. You are not qualified to have an opinion on this. A paying customer is always qualified to judge the results - NEVER the process.



That is one of those 'nail on the head' posts.


Tuner-Technician


#2190359 - 11/30/13 02:35 AM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]  
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Hakki Offline
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Gerry, of course I am not that arrogant to say the tuner which temperament to use. That is why I am here. I thought of referencing the pros here. So that it would be a suggestion from this group of tuners to them.

#2190364 - 11/30/13 02:55 AM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Gerry Johnston]  
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Olek Offline
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France
Originally Posted by Gerry Johnston
Originally Posted by Hakki
BTW, why I asked this question?

I still have my hopes that I can persuade one of the tuners here to tune aurally.

Also, with all my courage I will try to present them the translations of both the Steinway temperament and the contiguous thirds temperament (from Bill Bremmer's article).

Since the Steinway temperament seems more prone to cumulative errors, I will suggest the tuner to tune with the contiguous thirds method.

I understand that, the PTG exam requires the tuning of A4 within 3 cents against a tone.
But these tuners in my town are accustomed to using their ETDs for setting the A4.
So, I thought it would be appropriate to skip the aural tuning of A4 for an aural tuning using the contiguous thirds method.

But I am not sure.
Maybe there is a reason as to why the PTG is still requiring it.
Hence my question about the tuning of A4.

So, please everybody, don't seek for any concealed thoughts behind my questions.


Hakki -
Given your posts on this forum I'm not surprised that you are having difficulty finding a tuner. If a customer was so arrogant/foolish as give me instructions as to the best way to set a temperament I'd be out the door in a heartbeat. Experience teaches that some customers are just way too difficult to deal with. Either learn how to tune yourself or hire a professional and LEAVE HIM/HER alone - no instructions, no B.S., don't tell a pro. what YOU think is the best temperament sequence. You are not qualified to have an opinion on this. A paying customer is always qualified to judge the results - NEVER the process.



Eh, well, yes, some sort of, but is the tuner qualified to know which temperament sequence to use to please some kind of customer? I mean not sure at all on that.

The relation "output vs tuning scheme" is not something many tuner have ideas about.



Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2190366 - 11/30/13 03:01 AM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Jbyron]  
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bkw58 Offline

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bkw58  Offline

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Joined: Mar 2009
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Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted by Jbyron
Originally Posted by Gerry Johnston

Hakki -
Given your posts on this forum I'm not surprised that you are having difficulty finding a tuner. If a customer was so arrogant/foolish as give me instructions as to the best way to set a temperament I'd be out the door in a heartbeat. Experience teaches that some customers are just way too difficult to deal with. Either learn how to tune yourself or hire a professional and LEAVE HIM/HER alone - no instructions, no B.S., don't tell a pro. what YOU think is the best temperament sequence. You are not qualified to have an opinion on this. A paying customer is always qualified to judge the results - NEVER the process.



That is one of those 'nail on the head' posts.


I do not necessarily disagree with Gerry in principle. In virtually all cases, the client will not be qualified to instruct concerning the best temperament sequence et al., much less ask for it's implementation on his piano. But in business or practice the wiser course is to be patient and at least hear him out.

It is axiomatic. If we wish to succeed in business: a) The client is always right; b) in the event we believe the client is wrong, see a).

The consumer has the right or prerogative to request a preferred temperament or temperamental sequence, et al.

In response, the tech can say:

1. "You are not qualified to have an opinion on this."

This is a negative put down. An offended client can do far more harm to our business than we can do to them. They have relatives, friends, acquaintances - many with itching ears - and far more than we might imagine. In the final analysis, we may win the battle, but lose the war.

2. "I am sorry. I cannot do what you ask, but I will try and help you to find someone who can."

If declining the tuning is for personal ethical reasons, it is best not say so, as it implies the client is being seen as unethical in his request. Bad PR.

3. "Ok, let's give it a try and see how you like it."
Such, in effect, tells the client that we are more interested in his needs. It's a win-win. Along with 2., it's great PR that can pay dividends via recommendations in the years to come.

All of this is in my view, of course. It's a free country. All are at liberty to do whatsoever they wish.


Last edited by bkw58; 11/30/13 03:02 AM. Reason: clarity

Bob W.
Piano Technician (Retired since 2006)
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
#2190382 - 11/30/13 04:10 AM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]  
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Olek Offline
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France
I have no problem the customer watching me, also, but it is more correct to to be asked first.

Could be disturbing, I understand that. Discussing temperament sequences with a customer, is probably useless. Unless he is harpsichord player, he do not have the basics.

Still I think different sequences gives different outputs so it could be an eventual concern or inquiry. I just doubt the customer can have knowledge of some practical value on the subject.

I had opinions from customers on "standard tuning" vs tuning schemes in "pure 5ths" (as that one's are used by some tuners) .


Some tuners need more quietness to tune, that is understandeable, due to the type of work where high concentration is mandatory.


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2190385 - 11/30/13 04:35 AM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]  
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Hakki Offline
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Bob, Isaac, thank you. Wish you were tuners in my town.

#2190394 - 11/30/13 05:13 AM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]  
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Mark Davis Offline
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Hakki, I may have missed it, but what is your profession/vocation?

Originally Posted by Hakki
Do you tune it against a tone or just by directly measuring it?

And why do you prefer your method over the other?


There are many ways to skin a cat.

You are obviously well aware of the various methods that tuners use to set A4, so why ask such a questions, as, "why do you prefer your method over the other?"

Originally Posted by Hakki
Sorry, I hadn't thought it would be such a scaring question.


The problem is that you already know the answer/s and you have proven that you have the uncanny ability to pick everything apart ad infinitum.

Originally Posted by Hakki


I understand that, the PTG exam requires the tuning of A4 within 3 cents against a tone.
But these tuners in my town are accustomed to using their ETDs for setting the A4.
So, I thought it would be appropriate to skip the aural tuning of A4 for an aural tuning using the contiguous thirds method.

But I am not sure.
Maybe there is a reason as to why the PTG is still requiring it.
Hence my question about the tuning of A4.

So, please everybody, don't seek for any concealed thoughts behind my questions.


If the ETD has been calibrated to a good/reliable pitch source, such as NIST, then there should be no problem using an ETD to tune A4, and it maybe faster and easier.

If your tuner had to set A4 using whatever method, and let's say that he landed up being out by 3 cents, what would the problem be for you?



Last edited by Mark Davis; 11/30/13 05:22 AM. Reason: a

Mark Davis
Piano Tuner/Technician
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New Topics - Multiple Forums
Two Masters!
by DavidWB. 10/17/17 01:10 AM
LA area tech for digital Kawai?
by Joe Garfield. 10/17/17 12:19 AM
New Baldwin Pianos
by Mickey24. 10/16/17 07:24 PM
Time signature Question
by NuggetSC. 10/16/17 06:58 PM
How to attach a picture
by NuggetSC. 10/16/17 06:11 PM
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Mar 21st, 2010
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