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#2169260 - 10/21/13 04:01 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]  
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Mark Davis Offline
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I better qualify before I find myself in hot water again.

I see I am getting into the subjective, personal and preferance thing, so I will just say, there are ETD tuners and then there are ETD tuners!

There is obviously more that one can say, but I will leave it at that.


Last edited by Mark Davis; 10/21/13 04:48 AM. Reason: a

Mark Davis
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#2169265 - 10/21/13 05:50 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]  
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This aspect reminds me of a distinction somebody made with regard to the use of hand held digital calculators when they were introduced on the 1970's.

He divided the world into those who did the calculation in their head or on paper and then checked it electronically and those who used the calculator first and then checked it the old fashioned way.

That was in the days when most people had the ability to make calculations without electronic help.

Last edited by rxd; 10/21/13 05:57 AM.

Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


#2169333 - 10/21/13 07:54 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Mark Davis]  
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I do think that any and everyone has a right to tune whatever temperament they want to and are entitled to their own opinion whether or not that that may fly in the face of logic or general consensus.

It is not a matter of a standard of tuning temperament as it is a matter of the standard of one's work.

I think that with the advent of ETD's, and living in an electronic/digital/technological age, one needs to either get with it or live with what you cannot do, especially with regards to tuning.

One has to look at it from a business/competitor point of view too. Match your competitor or beat them. Is that not the game that is really being played here.

I mean, really, why should one loose a customer for not wanting to, or for not being able to tune ET or a UT? Get rid of personal preference and get a cut into your competitors market.

Then you will soon find out that it is not about a " temperament standard" but about business.

Is that not what business is about? Having the edge due to being one step ahead and that, hopefully, coupled with excellence?

One thing I have learned, there is always room for someone who is going to be honest and do a good job.


Last edited by Mark Davis; 10/21/13 08:30 AM. Reason: a

Mark Davis
Piano Tuner/Technician
#2169356 - 10/21/13 08:47 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]  
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adamp88 Offline
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Here's a question for you, Mark (and I don't mean this to be accusatory at all, so forgive me if it comes across as such): Let's say you use the ETD to tune the UT's temperament. How do you know if you've tuned it correctly?

I ask because, at least in my experience, when using an ETD to tune an ET temperament, I always end up making at least a couple minor adjustments after aurally checking the temperament. Unless you have a good understanding of what the intervals are supposed to sound like in the chosen UT, how would you know that you have set that temperament correctly?

Last edited by adamp88; 10/21/13 08:48 AM.

Adam Schulte-Bukowinski, RPT
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#2169378 - 10/21/13 09:28 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]  
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Mark Davis Offline
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Good question Adam.

Well, so much for the ETD tuners!

I am glad I tune aurally in general.

So then we need to ask ourselves what are those strictly ETD tuners really doing?

I have more thoughts on this but I think that I will leave it there for the moment.


Mark Davis
Piano Tuner/Technician
#2169398 - 10/21/13 09:52 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: alfredo capurso]  
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Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by bkw58
[quote=Mark Davis]Thinking of the issue of "Should there be a Tuning Temperament Standard", it suddenly occurred to me, that that is not the issue.

//SNIP//

In relation to the specifics of the thread topic, the PTG does not mandate ET as the professional standard of doing business. Moreover, even though A440 is referred to as "standard pitch," it is not so treated either. This is wisdom. In an industry that is both arts and science, to require such standardization - legal or otherwise - would stymie creativity, not to mention business.


Yes, bkw58, I quite agree with you when you refer to "arts", not quite when it is supposed to be science.

For instance, ETD's manufacturers do mention Equal Temperament but... should not they respond to an official standard before they can sell...(?) Four years ago Robert Scott was saying that they (ETDS ET) are all "variations" from 12 root of two...

Cui prodest?

Regards, a.c.
.


Agreed. The science needs a frame of reference.



Bob W.
Piano Technician (Retired since 2006)
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
#2169415 - 10/21/13 10:11 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Mark Davis]  
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Bill Bremmer RPT Online content
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Originally Posted by Mark Davis
I do think that any and everyone has a right to tune whatever temperament they want to and are entitled to their own opinion whether or not that that may fly in the face of logic or general consensus.

It is not a matter of a standard of tuning temperament as it is a matter of the standard of one's work.

I think that with the advent of ETD's, and living in an electronic/digital/technological age, one needs to either get with it or live with what you cannot do, especially with regards to tuning.

One has to look at it from a business/competitor point of view too. Match your competitor or beat them. Is that not the game that is really being played here.

I mean, really, why should one loose a customer for not wanting to, or for not being able to tune ET or a UT? Get rid of personal preference and get a cut into your competitors market.

Then you will soon find out that it is not about a " temperament standard" but about business.

Is that not what business is about? Having the edge due to being one step ahead and that, hopefully, coupled with excellence?

One thing I have learned, there is always room for someone who is going to be honest and do a good job.


Mark,

I've never seen a more logical or fair minded post than this by you or anyone else on this subject! Thank you. I tune unequal temperaments because there is a demand for them here. It has long been a local preference and standard. I could not get half of the work I do unless I did.

Some people seem to have never understood that. Madison, Wisconsin is known for innovation and progressive trends and thinking. What I do has always tied in with that. Instead of simply taking what one book or one person has said or advocated, I have taken ideas from many sources over the years.

I have a natural inclination to question authority and to pick apart what may be written in a book, find shortcomings, contradictions and compare with other sources.

As for Adam's remark, I agree. If I use an ETD calculated program, I do so because it is a practical, convenient and stress reducing tool to accomplish what I already have in mind as a goal. The results are never perfect, only an approximation. Therefore, if anyone simply plugs in none ET figures to such a program but does not already know what the final results should be, it is more or less a stab in the dark.

I never tried to force or even encourage anyone to tune pianos in non-equal temperaments. Yet, what I have found plenty of has been people trying to force me not to. SO, for me to finally say to them that none of their persuasions are going to affect what I do has been taken as "vehement defense of UT". It has always seemed to me that the vehemence has come from from those who advocate one standard and one standard only.

I always had found a parallel with that in the English only standard for the USA. Most of those who insist upon it cannot actually and adequately come up to the standard they advocate but seek to prevent the use of any other language anywhere and everywhere. I don't tell them that they should learn another language (even though if they did, it would surely help to improve the only one they know) but I do defend my right and privilege to speak, read and write in other languages as I choose to under any given circumstance.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
#2169439 - 10/21/13 10:48 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]  
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Hello Bill

I am glad that you and I are able to agree on something, as for the language thing, rest assured, we disagree.

However, i will say that you are entitled to your own opinion.

Thank you,

Last edited by Mark Davis; 10/21/13 10:52 AM. Reason: a

Mark Davis
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#2169452 - 10/21/13 11:04 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]  
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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT


I always had found a parallel with that in the English only standard for the USA. Most of those who insist upon it cannot actually and adequately come up to the standard they advocate but seek to prevent the use of any other language anywhere and everywhere. I don't tell them that they should learn another language (even though if they did, it would surely help to improve the only one they know) but I do defend my right and privilege to speak, read and write in other languages as I choose to under any given circumstance.


Bill, just a thought?

How far do you think you will get with this thinking, in, let's say, Iran?


Mark Davis
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#2169455 - 10/21/13 11:09 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]  
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Minnesota Marty Offline

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I have never before heard anyone comparing Madison Wisconsin to Iran.

Last time I was in MadCity, I dined at a restaurant which had a menu in French. No big deal. The prices were listed in $-US, which was very helpful. I'm not good with Euros.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2169459 - 10/21/13 11:11 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]  
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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT

I always had found a parallel with that in the English only standard for the USA. Most of those who insist upon it cannot actually and adequately come up to the standard they advocate but seek to prevent the use of any other language anywhere and everywhere.


Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
I have never before heard anyone comparing Madison Wisconsin to Iran.

Last time I was in MadCity, I dined at a restaurant which had a menu in French. No big deal. The prices were listed in $-US, which was very helpful. I'm not good with Euros.


As per usual, you twist everything.

It must have something to do with your Jesuit linked back ground!?

Last edited by Mark Davis; 10/21/13 11:56 AM.

Mark Davis
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#2169508 - 10/21/13 12:22 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]  
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Talk about twisted reasoning.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2169523 - 10/21/13 12:54 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]  
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Mark Davis Offline
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Ok, let us talk about it.

Firstly, how do you get Madison Wisconsin, when Bill clearly says "the USA"?

What you are doing is deflecting Bill's anti American sentiment.

It is clearly seen in what he has said, and you are very well aware of it.

The venom and lies is seen in this, "Most of those who insist upon it cannot actually and adequately come up to the standard they advocate but seek to prevent the use of any other language anywhere and everywhere.".

What Bill is saying is this. "You stupid Americans"and later he vaunts his superiority. Bill's arrogance is brazen and inexcusable!

Who is preventing who from learning what language? and why belittle and mock your fellow American? Anywhere and Everywhere? What an outright lie!

So, we then must ask, why such a question as this, "I always had found a parallel with that in the English only standard for the USA."? What is wrong with a standard of English if you are an English founded and based country? Why the anti?

What is it's basis? Is it even true? Why make such a statement?

So what I was saying is this, Let Bill take his and your logic to Iran, Syria or one of those Islamic, Indian country and go tell them that you are anti their language standard!






Mark Davis
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#2169536 - 10/21/13 01:24 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]  
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Minnesota Marty Offline

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Since you are unable to comprehend what Bill has written, I am not about to 'translate' it for you. It is clear as it is written.

The only thing worth pointing out is a short quote from Bill:

Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer
Madison, Wisconsin is known for innovation and progressive trends and thinking. What I do has always tied in with that. Instead of simply taking what one book or one person has said or advocated, I have taken ideas from many sources over the years.

Please try some careful reading of his posting.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2169540 - 10/21/13 01:29 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]  
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Minnesota Marty Offline

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Just to be clear, the United States of American has neither an Official Religion, nor an Official Language.

Yes, it certainly does separate us from Iran.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2169547 - 10/21/13 01:36 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]  
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Mark Davis Offline
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Just to be clear, the United States of American has neither an Official Religion, nor an Official Language.

Yes, it certainly does separate us from Iran.


Let us just re-read Bill's statement, and let him speak for himself!

Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT

I always had found a parallel with that in the English only standard for the USA. Most of those who insist upon it cannot actually and adequately come up to the standard they advocate but seek to prevent the use of any other language anywhere and everywhere. I don't tell them that they should learn another language (even though if they did, it would surely help to improve the only one they know) but I do defend my right and privilege to speak, read and write in other languages as I choose to under any given circumstance.


Mark Davis
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#2169554 - 10/21/13 01:47 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]  
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Mr. Davis,

Let me bring you up to date. There is no "official" language in the USA. There are periodic attempts to make it thus, however. Within the last month, there has been some lip flapping in Wisconsin to make it the official State language. Pity.

Despite Wisconsin's glorious and progressive past, the State is experiencing a self-identity crisis. Pity.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2169569 - 10/21/13 02:11 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]  
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Ok. Mark, I see you are very enthusiastic about many things. However, let me make something abundantly clear.

There are things we do not discuss on Piano World.
among these things are religion and politics. Verboten. Taboo. Forbidden. They cause hard feelings, flames, etc. We are not here for that. If that is what you wish to discuss, there are many venues available for such discussion. This is not one of them.

This is not about agreement or disagreement with you. It is simply a matter of enforcing the policy of Piano World.

So please, stop.

Last edited by Ken Knapp; 10/21/13 07:20 PM. Reason: remove religious discussion.

Mark Davis
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#2169602 - 10/21/13 03:02 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]  
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I do hope that the wall being built is for containment.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2169648 - 10/21/13 04:18 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]  
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Check please.


Zeno Wood, Piano Technician
Brooklyn College
#2169725 - 10/21/13 06:36 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]  
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Bill Bremmer RPT Online content
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Why ain't all them ferners learn to talk American like us? = Why doesn't everybody just tune ET? They all do about as well as those who only want one language spoken in the USA speak English.

Mark, you have a serious problem taking what other people say at face value. You wrote a fine statement with which I totally agreed. You should accept that for what it is.

The USA has never had an official language. It may seem unbelievable to those outside it and even inside it if they don't already know that. English only became the most commonly used language here because of circumstances. The Declaration of Independence and Constitution are written in English, yes but there never has been either a law nor Constitutional provision that declared English as the official language.

My point, of course is that if English were actually made to be the the only language permitted to be spoken or written, it would most likely degenerate to the point that whatever anyone said or wrote would be "English". It is already happening with the way that young people use shorthand in text messages. They have invented their own form of the language and can't write at college level anymore. I know because I have tutored a lot of them.

The same parallel has happened with temperament. Since there is only one temperament, whatever anyone does is ET. They sure do get hopping mad if you tell them it isn't really ET, though. As long as they meant it to be ET, believed it to be ET and tried to tune, ET, it's ET. If you show them why it is not ET and prove to them that it isn't, you are trying to shove UT down their throats. If you try to show them another way to tune ET that might actually work better, you are an egoist who is only trying to promote your own business.

So, after a while, I just start ignoring that kind of resistance. I have many ways I can help someone learn to tune ET more surely and easily. I can also introduce anyone who is interested to the beauty of non-equal temperaments. Just being able to tune one non-ET will help you to understand ET better and get better results.

That is why I participate on here and I have helped dozens of people pass their PTG Tuning Exam. Many others have also found the beauty of WT. If you have any other opinion of me or motivation for mentioning my name, you are not likely to get a response from me about it but you can say anything you want, of course. It usually ends up just being free advertising for me.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
#2169733 - 10/21/13 06:51 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]  
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Here in Oakland, there are over 140 different languages and dialects spoken. There are people on my block who were born in at least 4 different continents.

I have never had anyone demonstrate to me the beauty of any unequal temperament. Some of the temperaments that people claim are one temperament or another are pretty much indistinguishable from equal temperament, but the vast majority of them are no temperament at all, they are just plain out of tune.


Semipro Tech
#2169763 - 10/21/13 08:26 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]  
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Just so we have this straight here on the tech forum.

Mark’s comments are not permitted but the policy of Pianoworld is to let the rest of the 10 pages of this thread, mostly garbage postings about a lot of nothing, the deliberate flaming, insulting, arguing, posturing and the continuous trolling, done mostly by non-techs, apparently this is to be permitted.

Astonishing.

There is no reason to wonder why this tech forum has turned into the kindergarten of the tech forums on the internet.
Here is a quote from the purpose of the Tuner/Technician Forum.

This is taken from my recent thread “Enough is enough”.

Quote
Piano tuner-technicians, use this forum to discuss tuning, repairs, restorations, etc.
Also, the place to post technical questions about the piano.


Originally Posted by Ken Knapp


This is a place for the tuners and technicians to discuss amongst themselves methods and techniques.

Yes, non-professionals can participate, but challenging and arguing with the professionals is BEYOND the intention of the forum. In fact, arguing is beyond the intent of any of the forums.

There is another forum on PW I avoid at all costs because many who participate seem intent on proving to everyone else how great they are. Some may indeed be truly great, but you can cut through the egos with a knife. I sometimes see that here, although not as bad.

So professionals, act professional. And non-professionals, let's remember you are not here to be adversarial, you are here to LEARN from the pro's. That is why this forum is here. If anyone doesn't like that, then take it up with Frank Baxter.


This quoted part from Ken Knapp is a wonderful sentiment to have. The tragic part is this aforementioned sentiment is neither observed nor enforced on a continuing basis.

Ken, your posting reveals that this entire thread has not been read.
Sorry but to moderate one objectionable posting out of this thread while leaving many other objectionable postings in this thread is not moderation, that is firefighting.




Dan Silverwood
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#2169774 - 10/21/13 08:53 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]  
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Obviously, Mr. Silverwood, you were not able to read the inflammatory diatribe posted by Mr. Davis referencing religion in America, before it was deleted by Ken.

Pity.

It was so enlightening as to his viewpoints and for all to see.

Ken, would it be best to add a posting with your signature line, rather than within a deleted posting above the signature of Mr. Davis?


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2169816 - 10/21/13 10:40 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Olek]  
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Originally Posted by Olek

If you cannot hear what it is about and if your customers are pleased with hard unisons let's be it. Do not try to come using that to Europe, you will be obliged to learn. to tune.


Let's all get back to tuning....

Maybe it is a language thing... If by hard you mean clean, or focused, then yes - That's what's appreciated and expected around here... And the above is probably the best explanation for why there shouldn't be a standard for temperament - we can't even agree on how to tune one note, much less a whole bunch!!

I think we all serve the market we find ourselves tuning for - or we create the market that fits our style. Just as there are many types of pianos, many types of hammers, many voicings, there doesn't seem to be one way of tuning that fits the whole world - I for one, have no problem with techs choosing to specialize in one type of tuning, as long as there isn't any claim that their way is the best or only way to satisfy the needs of the wide variety of clients of the world...

Jim, you should be proud - look at the length of this thread!!

Ron Koval



#2169897 - 10/22/13 06:02 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]  
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[quote=Bill Bremmer RPT
The USA has never had an official language. It may seem unbelievable to those outside it and even inside it if they don't already know that.
[/quote]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English


Mark Davis
Piano Tuner/Technician
#2169904 - 10/22/13 06:27 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: RonTuner]  
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Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mark Davis  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 715
Originally Posted by RonTuner

I for one, have no problem with techs choosing to specialize in one type of tuning, as long as there isn't any claim that their way is the best or only way to satisfy the needs of the wide variety of clients of the world...



I see you have changed your position Ron.

There is nothing wrong with someone thinking and claiming that something is better than something else.

My claim is that ET is better than UT for the modern day piano, and that is why it is the standard upon the big concert stages and for Steinway.

Such as, is the Aston Martin vehicle a better one than a Subaru vehicle? Of course it is and for a number of reasons. Evidence speaks for itself, but for some people they refuse to acknowledge the evidence and that is a problem.

As for me I think that there is far more weight behind ET being the standard than UT.

Does anyone know what the Chicago School of piano technology is teaching on the issue of temperaments? What the standard is? The place of UT in modern day piano technology?

Adam?

Does anyone know what North Bennett street school, and others are teaching on the issue?


Mark Davis
Piano Tuner/Technician
#2169908 - 10/22/13 06:42 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Mark Davis]  
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 306
Chris Storch Offline
Full Member
Chris Storch  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 306
Mark,

North Bennet teaches historical temperaments for a very short time, as an introduction into the process of tempering intervals. There was a Pythagorean, Werkmeister, and maybe one other. Vallotti-Young if I remember correctly.

They were very pragmatic about it. The instructors were looking to get us ramped up to Equal Temperament as quickly as possible.

If a student was interested in historical temperaments, the instructors pretty much pointed us to Jorgensen. They indicated that the request to tune historical temperaments occurs only rarely. Peter Serkin flies through town from time to time, and everyone brushes up on 1/7 comma.

Hope this helps,


Chris Storch
Acoustician / Piano Technician
#2169932 - 10/22/13 07:48 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 715
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mark Davis  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 715
Thank you very much Chris.

It does help.

Regards,


Mark Davis
Piano Tuner/Technician
#2169953 - 10/22/13 09:01 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,970
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member
RonTuner  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,970
Chicagoland
Originally Posted by OperaTenor

By my ETD, my temperament was closer in most respects to ET than the one you posted that you like to use. Not that what I tuned was better (I'm going to try yours out on my piano before I do it on a customer's), that is merely where it measured.

My m.o. these days is listen, then look (as a check).


Unless you've changed your ETD, I don't think you can use it to tune a mild well temperament - I used something similar for years the same way you do - that's the best way; making sure you haven't gone awry, but primarily following your tuning checks...

Look into the documentation, I believe the accuracy is only +-1 cent; giving that ETD a "zone" of in-tune, but not a real specific target to be able to follow. While the display may seem to give enough precision, plus or minus a cent is just a little too wide for really fine piano work - unless you are using it as you do - aural tuning, with visual backup.

Ron Koval

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