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Tunewerk, perhaps the question is this: can you tune progressive RBI's and (aural) beatless 12ths (aurally)?
Jeff, can you?
Can you? Still waiting for your recording of progressive M3/M6's. Kees
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#2175760 - November 02, 2013 07:36 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: alfredo capurso] ... //SNIPP// ...tuning becomes a very complex thing.
Tunewerk, perhaps the question is this: can you tune progressive RBI's and (aural) beatless 12ths (aurally)? Jeff, can you? Yes. That's where I started.
Tuning becomes more complex after that. Yes. That's where I started.
Tuning becomes more complex after that. I see, if I understand correctly, you can tune "progressive RBI's and (aural) beatless 12ths (aurally)". That is fair enough, I am sure you will be able to prove that (with some recordings)? Sure, I could do that Alfredo. Maybe at some point in the future.
To what end, though? To prove to you that I can tune? I don't see how that is meaningful at all. Especially not when you invite me with a passive-aggressive challenge.
You will have to take me at my word that I know what I am talking about. There is plenty of detail in my writing.
My position is that your 'perfect beats curves' idea is false. If you look closer, you will find all kinds of variation in the curves. A perfect curve is only possible with a perfect scale. There are no perfect scales.
I think you are a great tuner with great understanding, but I think you are wrong about some things. Egotistic challenges only slow the progress of collective understanding. Hi Tunewerk. You wrote: ..."Sure, I could do that Alfredo. Maybe at some point in the future."... I am glad for your good will. ..."To what end, though? To prove to you that I can tune? I don't see how that is meaningful at all."... That would be meaninful in that it would "prove" (once again) to all PW's readers that a Standard is shareable. ..."Especially not when you invite me with a passive-aggressive challenge."... Sorry, Tunewerk, what do you mean? Where is the "passive-aggressive challenge"? ..."You will have to take me at my word that I know what I am talking about. There is plenty of detail in my writing."... That would not be a problem, I take many posters at their words, even if they are perfect anonymous. ...My position is that your 'perfect beats curves' idea is false."... Ok, that is your position, but... we were talking about "standard". ..."If you look closer, you will find all kinds of variation in the curves. A perfect curve is only possible with a perfect scale. There are no perfect scales."... Fair enough, on the one hand your sharings, on the other hand mine. ..."I think you are a great tuner with great understanding, but I think you are wrong about some things."... More than compliments, let's talk about specific things. ..."Egotistic challenges only slow the progress of collective understanding."... Hmmm.., I am willing to respond for my ego, if you can respond for yours we might be able to go "collective". Now, on tuning & intonation: how do you (All) hear those M6ths... To me they sound sharper than usual. Here is the quote with the links: When you please your customers, repeatedly, THAT should be your "standard". Hi Gary, Perhaps you meant to say ...your "standard".. customers!! :-) I think that If your customers were to discover a tuning standard which is higher than yours they might decide to change their usual tuner. This is to say that if you please your customer + the standard you can refer to is objectively good... all the better? What do you mean by "typical"? I thought the typical "precise point" - in the "standard" context - were beatless octaves. What I mean by typical 12ths vs. 4ths/5ths is the 12th - in my experience - is a narrower bandwidth on almost all pianos than 4ths and 5ths. This leads to a narrower range of acceptability when tuning 12ths and may make it a better marker for stretch. The standard model has meant beatless octaves in the past, but now most technicians - at least here in the NE United States - do not take the standard model to mean beatless octaves. Only that mathematically the piano is derived from the 12th root of two - or the general idea of the doubling of frequency every 12 steps, which is true. Beyond that basic definition, tuning becomes a very complex thing. I was finishing a tuning tonight with extra time to spare and I tried reinventing my temperament method. It was really interesting to me how it changed the way I heard what I was doing and made me reconsider everything that I think about tone and temperament. It made me realize first, how terribly conditioned we are. Equal temperament is truly the temperament where nothing is really in tune. My ear wants to hear purer intervals than what ET will allow me to tune (in any form of stretch). I practiced tuning what my ear really wanted to hear to see how far off I would be from ET, and it was drastic. I found myself wanting to hear pure 6ths. It is a very beautiful tone, especially with an inner 4th. What a thing of beauty we are missing every day with equal temperament. Second, it came to me how damaging this idea of temperament and then stretch is. They are not separate concepts. The temperament should extend to the whole piano. Stretch is dictated by the instrument, not something imposed upon it. As much as I might be attracting vicious disagreement, I believe we are completely and hopelessly conditioned. To be 'in-tune' is just a question of what the listener prefers. Only one thing can be truly in tune at a time. Tunewerk, I acknowledge what you are saying, I am not sure of where that "...mathematically the piano is derived from the 12th root of two..." comes from, and ".. the general idea of the doubling of frequency every 12 steps...", is perhaps "general" but (apparently) not true. Perhaps it is not "...beyond" but because of "that basic definition..." that "...tuning becomes a very complex thing."? As for the other things you say... let me help you... trying not to be vicious. :-) You lament having to temper... but that is not only the ET case, that is the case for all scales where integer_ratio intervals are... tempered. The ET you mention is only the nth pseudo-solution, and it came after many other temperaments that had lost the 6th you are missing. And you perfectly know, add a few notes and make your pure 6th become a 12th and... you would hear a desperate donkey singing. ..."Second, it came to me how damaging this idea of temperament and then stretch is. They are not separate concepts. The temperament should extend to the whole piano. Stretch is dictated by the instrument, not something imposed upon it."... No way I can be sure I get what you mean, although I have re-read those lines many times. Perhaps you say that the octave needs to be stretched due to iH? That "stretch" is not "tempering"? ..."As much as I might be attracting vicious disagreement, I believe we are completely and hopelessly conditioned. To be 'in-tune' is just a question of what the listener prefers. Only one thing can be truly in tune at a time." Yes, also "feeling safe", for example, might be a question of what the individual prefers, some may not care at all, many make sure they have locked the door. Evviva le seste: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDo8Iz8LzW4
alfredo
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...And, between 3:00 and 3:02 she gets the 4th and does a vibrato that to my ear reaches the 5th, the octave above the dominant. I would like to make sure that it is not an allucination, would you (All) tell me what you hear? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpPQqOYlgC8Regards, a.c. .
alfredo
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Tunewerk, perhaps the question is this: can you tune progressive RBI's and (aural) beatless 12ths (aurally)?
Jeff, can you?
Can you? Still waiting for your recording of progressive M3/M6's. Kees Thank you, Kees, for enquiring. In these years I am meeting colleagues and friends on a one-to-one basis, not necessarely (read: not only) for business, for more than one reason. I too am curious about analyzer apps., about their limits and approximation. I would propose you a rendez-vous, either where you live or in London, how would you like that? And if it is Canada, we could involve one colleague/friend of mine from Manitoba?
alfredo
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Tunewerk, perhaps the question is this: can you tune progressive RBI's and (aural) beatless 12ths (aurally)?
Jeff, can you?
Can you? Still waiting for your recording of progressive M3/M6's. Kees Thank you, Kees, for enquiring. In these years I am meeting colleagues and friends on a one-to-one basis, not necessarely (read: not only) for business, for more than one reason. I too am curious about analyzer apps., about their limits and approximation. I would propose you a rendez-vous, either where you live or in London, how would you like that? And if it is Canada, we could involve one colleague/friend of mine from Manitoba? How about instead just posting your progressive M3/M6's? Kees
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Although this is a bit of a red herring in this thread, Lana must have lost the tenuous acoustical connection any opera singer has with the accompanying unit as soon as the assembled mob started behaving as though she had just scored the operatic equivalent of a home run. Considering how much of the carefully buit up drama would have been lost had she simplistically gone from the third degree of the scale to the fourth degree "perfectly" whatever that means in this context. In fact, the Bb is better regarded as the sixth degree of Dm because that's where the harmony is going. It has become part of a diminished chord. alternately, if we were to regard the Bb as an implied flattened 9th as current jazz harmonic theory would have us regard it, there is even more freedom of intonation, particularly that it is going to a Dm sus. I can hear that she knows that, even though she is out there all alone with nothing to guide her but her pitch memory and an overriding sense of the dramatic.
How much can she hear while she is producing a sound like that?? Anybody here done any singing at that level?
As we used to say, better to be sharp than out of tune. Many a true word Is spoken in jest.
A dramatic pitch vibrato at that level is behaving, acoustically, like a trill so any hint of a note higher sounds legitimate. Given that the voice is on a different tonal plane than the orchestra, which can barely be heard anyway at that point. (the predominant first violin in the ensuing tutti seems caught up in the excitement), she is literally out there on her own and does a superb job despite the heat of the television lighting.
I also speak as one who in another lifetime sat in opera house orchestra pits, often playing the same notes an octave lower than the singer as part of the supporting harmony. As I was told all those years ago, they need something to be sharp to in those moments. I also worked in units where it was a requirement for the lead trumpet to be just a trace sharp for the more dramatic moments.
What we heard is standard practice in hot and emotionally charged opera houses the world over.
And now, back to your scheduled program.
Amanda Reckonwith Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England. "in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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.....
Now tell me, can you tune beatless 12ths?
..... I strive to tune beatless 12ths just as a draftman would strive to draw a straight line. But when you use a magnifying glass, you may see that the line is a bit rough. I am sure that is the case with my, or anyone else's, beatless 12ths. Nothing is perfect, only within a tolerance. And any standard, which is what this Topic is about, must define the tolerance.
Jeff Deutschle Part-Time Tuner Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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All: I am looking forward to posting the M3s and M6s of a pure 12th temperment and finding any shortcomings through the analysis that Kees graciously is doing for us. Gosh, I just don't know when. It is not at the top of my list of priorities: http://thedailyreview.com/news/volunteers-helping-volunteers-1.1579313
Jeff Deutschle Part-Time Tuner Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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Jeff, I know this is off-topic, but as a former cub scout leader, I want to thank you for your service to this organization. My wife and I spent a few days in Towanda about 8 years ago. Her ancestors worked the mines at Barkley Mountain. We visited the old mine, and spent time in Towanda doing research on her ancestors. A beautiful city!!
Dave Forman Piano Technician, Westminster Choir College of Rider University
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Dave:
I hadn't known there were mines on Barkley, Hmmm.
Jeff Deutschle Part-Time Tuner Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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I strive to tune beatless 12ths just as a draftman would strive to draw a straight line. But when you use a magnifying glass, you may see that the line is a bit rough. I am sure that is the case with my, or anyone else's, beatless 12ths. Nothing is perfect, only within a tolerance. And any standard, which is what this topic is about, must define the tolerance. Well said, Jeff.
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with the adequate sequence (from the start), the "beatless" 12 th can be tuned directly while tuning the octave, just beacause of the amount of resonance.
The octave tuned can be considered as another "octave type" as the 2:1 ,4:2 etc...
Tuning 12th directly using an accessory to play the 2 notes together is not the same, as the 12th have as much leeway as the octave, in my opinion despite the strong 3d partial or because of it. (and the same "hot spot" assuming the rest of the piano helps.)
A very tolerant interval, makes it agreeable to tune, as 5ths.
Last edited by Olek; 11/04/13 06:28 PM.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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Isaac,
I propose aural_beatless_12ths for two reasons: firstly, because it can be easily checked; secondly, because the piano will settle somewhere below that... do you know what I mean? :-)
Regards, a.c.
Hi Alfredo, I begin to tune them directly in their settled position, due to the fact I appreciate working with fully tuned unisons. To go there I had to be trained to be conscious of the quality of the tone with the CHAS ratio tuned.
Then I try not to stay too strictly tuning it, just to provide more "harmonic tinkling" to the ears when the piano is played. I believe I can stay under the level of bad tasting and nasal sounding of too uneven tempering, controlling much intervals, but I may be wrong. indeed.
The idea that the piano is " a large temperament in itself" is covering the piano own resonance, and the way tuners deal with it (how partials are put together). For me there is no difference between a C2 a C3 a C4 as it would if the piano is having a moving tempering all along.
The specific justness of the enlarged tempering is magnificent, but miss contrast, it is "too nice" somewhere..
A 5ths in temperament zone, if large (or small) must be find in the treble with similar qualities.
the iH change along the scale allows only to do so up to a certain level, as it seem to me that the piano is a sort of self tempering instrument, it tend to get smoother by itself.
Hello Isaac, I meant to reply earlier than this, anyway... ..."Hi Alfredo, I begin to tune them directly in their settled position, due to the fact I appreciate working with fully tuned unisons. To go there I had to be trained to be conscious of the quality of the tone with the CHAS ratio tuned."... Yes, in these days I too have to resort to "fully tuned unisons", as "tuning" is often scheduled as a !one hour job!, but I still think that my favorite tuning requires two_strings_unisons at a time; in fact, the unison will "sing" the final pitch so... How the unison is done becomes crucial. On the other hand, perhaps this is only academic :-) ..."Then I try not to stay too strictly tuning it, just to provide more "harmonic tinkling" to the ears when the piano is played."... Is the "harmonic tinkling" you mention any equivalent of Ed's "emotions" theory? :-) ..."I believe I can stay under the level of bad tasting and nasal sounding of too uneven tempering, controlling much intervals, but I may be wrong. indeed."... I don't think so. ..."The idea that the piano is " a large temperament in itself" is covering the piano own resonance, and the way tuners deal with it (how partials are put together). Yes, absolutely, it is about partials and resonance in a "large temperament", more than 13 or 17 or 20 notes... ..."For me there is no difference between a C2 a C3 a C4 as it would if the piano is having a moving tempering all along."... I am not sure I get your point. ..."The specific justness of the enlarged tempering is magnificent, but miss contrast, it is "too nice" somewhere.."... Hmmm... yes, somewhere else you were saying that it gets boring? ..."A 5ths in temperament zone, if large (or small) must be find in the treble with similar qualities."... I do not agree, IMO all intervals have a larger "ear" leeway in the mid-section... ..."...the iH change along the scale allows only to do so up to a certain level, as it seem to me that the piano is a sort of self tempering instrument, it tend to get smoother by itself." I agree, and perhaps the piano gets smoother first and then, like a baloon... it slowly deflates? Best wishes, a.
Last edited by alfredo capurso; 11/04/13 08:53 PM.
alfredo
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Hi Alfredo, thank you for your answers.
I do not find it boring, but if for each tonality the piano is a giant chord, I wish those chords to differ somehow, but without rubbing . This is done without noticing when using standard tuning, as the optimum consonance is not obtained immediately, it leaves the pitches more separated one another.
Trying to have things under control as using the scale unevenness to create those differences (moving the curve so it is not too straight to the ear, if you see what I mean. Listening to the piano is more lively then.
It is very easy to fall on the badly sounding side, however...
In the end the CHAS lauching ramp sequence is so strong that it should be located at the worst place to create those different colorations. Or mixed with a different method, but it takes in account so many pitches soon the resonance appears and rule the tuning to the end.
Best regards
Last edited by Olek; 11/05/13 12:01 AM.
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Yes, Isaac, perhaps I see what you mean and I would not disagree, as individual we are enabled to refer to our own sense of musicality, and this may add character and liveliness to both the piano and our practice. Although this is a bit of a red herring in this thread, Lana must have lost the tenuous acoustical connection any opera singer has with the accompanying unit as soon as the assembled mob started behaving as though she had just scored the operatic equivalent of a home run. Considering how much of the carefully buit up drama would have been lost had she simplistically gone from the third degree of the scale to the fourth degree "perfectly" whatever that means in this context. In fact, the Bb is better regarded as the sixth degree of Dm because that's where the harmony is going. It has become part of a diminished chord. alternately, if we were to regard the Bb as an implied flattened 9th as current jazz harmonic theory would have us regard it, there is even more freedom of intonation, particularly that it is going to a Dm sus. I can hear that she knows that, even though she is out there all alone with nothing to guide her but her pitch memory and an overriding sense of the dramatic.
How much can she hear while she is producing a sound like that?? Anybody here done any singing at that level?
As we used to say, better to be sharp than out of tune. Many a true word Is spoken in jest.
A dramatic pitch vibrato at that level is behaving, acoustically, like a trill so any hint of a note higher sounds legitimate. Given that the voice is on a different tonal plane than the orchestra, which can barely be heard anyway at that point. (the predominant first violin in the ensuing tutti seems caught up in the excitement), she is literally out there on her own and does a superb job despite the heat of the television lighting.
I also speak as one who in another lifetime sat in opera house orchestra pits, often playing the same notes an octave lower than the singer as part of the supporting harmony. As I was told all those years ago, they need something to be sharp to in those moments. I also worked in units where it was a requirement for the lead trumpet to be just a trace sharp for the more dramatic moments.
What we heard is standard practice in hot and emotionally charged opera houses the world over.
And now, back to your scheduled program. Thank you, rxd, very nice comment. As you say... common practice is "...better to be sharp than out of tune", and I still cannot get used to that, anyway... How about the sixth at 3:17 (link below), it has a fourth in the middle (the tonic) as mentioned by Tunewerk (down below): would you like it pure? Was that interval to be tension-less, would that express the meaning of that passage? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFsljT1362s Regards, a.c. When you please your customers, repeatedly, THAT should be your "standard". Hi Gary, Perhaps you meant to say ...your "standard".. customers!! :-) I think that If your customers were to discover a tuning standard which is higher than yours they might decide to change their usual tuner. This is to say that if you please your customer + the standard you can refer to is objectively good... all the better? What do you mean by "typical"? I thought the typical "precise point" - in the "standard" context - were beatless octaves. What I mean by typical 12ths vs. 4ths/5ths is the 12th - in my experience - is a narrower bandwidth on almost all pianos than 4ths and 5ths. This leads to a narrower range of acceptability when tuning 12ths and may make it a better marker for stretch. The standard model has meant beatless octaves in the past, but now most technicians - at least here in the NE United States - do not take the standard model to mean beatless octaves. Only that mathematically the piano is derived from the 12th root of two - or the general idea of the doubling of frequency every 12 steps, which is true. Beyond that basic definition, tuning becomes a very complex thing. I was finishing a tuning tonight with extra time to spare and I tried reinventing my temperament method. It was really interesting to me how it changed the way I heard what I was doing and made me reconsider everything that I think about tone and temperament. It made me realize first, how terribly conditioned we are. Equal temperament is truly the temperament where nothing is really in tune. My ear wants to hear purer intervals than what ET will allow me to tune (in any form of stretch). I practiced tuning what my ear really wanted to hear to see how far off I would be from ET, and it was drastic. I found myself wanting to hear pure 6ths. It is a very beautiful tone, especially with an inner 4th. What a thing of beauty we are missing every day with equal temperament. Second, it came to me how damaging this idea of temperament and then stretch is. They are not separate concepts. The temperament should extend to the whole piano. Stretch is dictated by the instrument, not something imposed upon it. As much as I might be attracting vicious disagreement, I believe we are completely and hopelessly conditioned. To be 'in-tune' is just a question of what the listener prefers. Only one thing can be truly in tune at a time. Tunewerk, I acknowledge what you are saying, I am not sure of where that "...mathematically the piano is derived from the 12th root of two..." comes from, and ".. the general idea of the doubling of frequency every 12 steps...", is perhaps "general" but (apparently) not true. Perhaps it is not "...beyond" but because of "that basic definition..." that "...tuning becomes a very complex thing."? As for the other things you say... let me help you... trying not to be vicious. :-) You lament having to temper... but that is not only the ET case, that is the case for all scales where integer_ratio intervals are... tempered. The ET you mention is only the nth pseudo-solution, and it came after many other temperaments that had lost the 6th you are missing. And you perfectly know, add a few notes and make your pure 6th become a 12th and... you would hear a desperate donkey singing. ..."Second, it came to me how damaging this idea of temperament and then stretch is. They are not separate concepts. The temperament should extend to the whole piano. Stretch is dictated by the instrument, not something imposed upon it."... No way I can be sure I get what you mean, although I have re-read those lines many times. Perhaps you say that the octave needs to be stretched due to iH? That "stretch" is not "tempering"? ..."As much as I might be attracting vicious disagreement, I believe we are completely and hopelessly conditioned. To be 'in-tune' is just a question of what the listener prefers. Only one thing can be truly in tune at a time." Yes, also "feeling safe", for example, might be a question of what the individual prefers, some may not care at all, many make sure they have locked the door. Evviva le seste: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDo8Iz8LzW4
alfredo
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..."...the iH change along the scale allows only to do so up to a certain level, as it seem to me that the piano is a sort of self tempering instrument, it tend to get smoother by itself."
I agree, and perhaps the piano gets smoother first and then, like a baloon... it slowly deflates?
Best wishes, a.
Yes alfredo , see what you mean, I find it difficult to maintain or to install a certain crispness level on specific or above a specific location, while staying coherent with the way the mediums are tuned. ABout the 5 ths leeway, larger in mediums , I agree, but I seem to have reflected the quality of 5 ths on a 3 octave span (up) on that vertical , without falling in Russian mountains with the fast beating intervals. Not easy, certainly. it mean taking some risks, the use of Chas in treble may allow to temper that , but then the coherence is maintained only for a reduced serial of corresponding notes. I will see again that piano I tuned very fast in 35 minutes using mostly "musicality" and consonance spot as perceived in a maelstrom of noise. Certainly somewhat uneven, but also somewhat sonorous. Listening to that with quiet ears should be interesting. In the meantime I asked the customer (his daughter is a professional pianist and some are coming there regularly) and she is pleased with that tuning. Strange. The musical ear and brain like to be surprised, we all know that. that is what I like to experiment.
Last edited by Olek; 11/05/13 04:14 PM.
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.....
Now tell me, can you tune beatless 12ths?
..... I strive to tune beatless 12ths just as a draftman would strive to draw a straight line. But when you use a magnifying glass, you may see that the line is a bit rough. I am sure that is the case with my, or anyone else's, beatless 12ths. Nothing is perfect, only within a tolerance. And any standard, which is what this Topic is about, must define the tolerance. Yes, Jeff, (let me be bad) you think "straight" when there are a lot of curves (beat_rate_curves) to be drawn (!) :-) Now, jokes aside, even today I can only guess my pre-form and hope that the final tuning, after unisons, is the one I like. And, as you say, there might always be a point of imperfection, depending on the "glass". I find your observation reasonable but... I would proceed neatly, let's first sort out a reliable and practicable standard reference, then the "tolerance", which I do not think is a problem... actually, how many centuries of tolerance can we count? :-) Regards, a.c. .
alfredo
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Now, jokes aside, even today I can only guess my pre-form and hope that the final tuning, after unisons, is the one I like. And, as you say, there might always be a point of imperfection, depending on the "glass". I find your observation reasonable but... I would proceed neatly, let's first sort out a reliable and practicable standard reference, then the "tolerance", which I do not think is a problem... actually, how many centuries of tolerance can we count? :-)
It would be more productive if instead of producing verbiage like that you would post your progressively tuned M3/M6, that you asked other people to post, yourself. Even if you have to guess your "pre-form", whatever that is. Kees
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.....
Now tell me, can you tune beatless 12ths?
..... I strive to tune beatless 12ths just as a draftman would strive to draw a straight line. But when you use a magnifying glass, you may see that the line is a bit rough. I am sure that is the case with my, or anyone else's, beatless 12ths. Nothing is perfect, only within a tolerance. And any standard, which is what this Topic is about, must define the tolerance. Yes, Jeff, (let me be bad) you think "straight" when there are a lot of curves (beat_rate_curves) to be drawn (!) :-) Now, jokes aside, even today I can only guess my pre-form and hope that the final tuning, after unisons, is the one I like. And, as you say, there might always be a point of imperfection, depending on the "glass". I find your observation reasonable but... I would proceed neatly, let's first sort out a reliable and practicable standard reference, then the "tolerance", which I do not think is a problem... actually, how many centuries of tolerance can we count? :-) Regards, a.c. . Your english grammar is difficult to decipher. Too many posts with Isaac? If the M6-M17 test for a 3:1 12th has these two RBIs beating at the same rate (as far as an experienced tuner can tell), then I would say it is within tolerance. So then the beatrate of the 12ths is a straight line at 0 bps and all other beatrates are curves dependent mostly on the piano's iH but, yes, also dependent on the tolerance. Listening to other intervals will narrow the tolerance further.
Jeff Deutschle Part-Time Tuner Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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......let's first sort out a reliable and practicable standard reference, then the "tolerance", which I do not think is a problem... actually, how many centuries of tolerance can we count? :-)
Regards, a.c.
Do I detect some humour there?, the tolerance Jeff is speaking of is measured in cents, possibly centuries too, though. Why not? We've had to tolerate the tolerances that long.
Amanda Reckonwith Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England. "in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
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