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OK, I did not look at the answers yet, if that is what Kees long post is. Here are the M3s that seemed slower than the one below:

F#3
G3
A3
B3
D3
F4

It was so wierd listening for just an interval being out of sequence instead of the more necessary and practical and difficult job of deciding which note(s) should be adjusted and in what direction. I really have only about 80% confidence in my results.

Huh! I guess I suck at this!

Was enjoying this exchange until the unnecessary non causa pro causa. Doesn't exactly motivate one to participation.

Fwiw, if you use the beatrates of F3-A3 and F4-A4 and construct a logarithmic curve (as you would expect beatrates to behave) this is the result compared to how tunelab tuned:

Measured M3 beatrates

F3A 6.7 -- 6.7
F#A# 7.0 -- 7.0
GB 7.1 -- 7.3
G#C 8.6 -- 7.6 (large jump concides with mini-break)
AC# 8.8 -- 7.9
A#D 8.9 -- 8.2
BD# 9.9 -- 8.5
C4E 9.2 -- 8.9 (here we've crossed the mini-break)
C#F 9.5 -- 9.3
DF# 10.0 -- 9.7
D#G 10.9 -- 10.1
EG# 12.0 -- 10.6
F4A 11.0 -- 11.0 (here A was measured on partial 1)

As I have mentioned before, the beatrate of M3s less than double each octave. In this case the multiplier is 1.64.

[Edit:] Hmm, but if you ignore F4-A4 you get a multiplier of 1.89 and the following beatrate curve:

Measured M3 beatrates

F3A 6.7 -- 6.7
F#A# 7.0 -- 7.1
GB 7.1 -- 7.4
G#C 8.6 -- 7.9 (large jump concides with mini-break)
AC# 8.8 -- 8.3
A#D 8.9 -- 8.7
BD# 9.9 -- 9.2
C4E 9.2 -- 9.7 (here we've crossed the mini-break)
C#F 9.5 -- 10.2
DF# 10.0 -- 10.8
D#G 10.9 -- 11.4
EG# 12.0 -- 12.0
F4A 11.0 -- 12.6 (here A was measured on partial 1)

[2nd Edit:] Was I actually comparing, in my mind, what the progression should have been rather than the absolute difference in beatrates ...? ...? ...?

I was pretty damn close!



The fact that a break was at C is unusual - is that a plate strut on a grand? What kind of piano is this?

I move my head around and play at different volumes to pick out the partials that I want to listen to. This was difficult to do here.

Kees I am sorry I did not take the time but a few intervals really did not sound right as D# G4 - FA EG#. (M3) of course all the too slow, or slowing, and in the 6 ths is tis clear that the progression is not there.

The jumps are mostly due to the display I suppose, are all notes sampled ?


I recorded more intervals today while tuning finally that vertical I have on sale. I will post that in a moment it is a sort of CHAS tuning.

Is it what you expect, Phil (I thought that hearing me tuning PR the piano could be of some interest, actually for a PR it was not that bad.


I do not need to listen to this or that partial, only for octaves be aware of what is coupling, I have read that there are two ways to listen. I listen for activity not chasing for a particular beat. I listen to what is strong and evident. (for octaves it comes from 2:1)

Regards

You are right, I stand corrected.

It a 1903 Heintzmann upright. There is no reason that mini-break should be there. String diameter remains the same. Perhaps the makers anticipated tunelab placing C too high which results in a better CE M3 and thus something like a mild well temperament. (Joke.)

You are right, the only way to really test yourself is to do this experiment at home and listen live. I will be happy to measure beatrates for anyone wishing to do the experiment. Not sure if there is freeware that allows you do do spectral analysis yourself.

Kees

There are freewares, I am looking for one that I had and the name escapes me(providing the same type of real time "flag "graph (flag ?)

Not sure it can count beats !

Thank you for the offer you will have slow intervals long enough ... whenever you have time for that ...

Here it is.

intervals begin at F3 as this is the first plain wire.

I can record the break too but I had to massage the basses before retuning.

Just get that with my phone so I apologize for the quality , but at last it is not as saturated as the last time.

Thanks

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQMWJfbV94THZhRXM/edit?usp=sharing

PS it is a sort of maximum stretch tuning , I would not use more. but the 12ths are still tempered

Here are a few chords with a lot of sustain pedal

I hope the tone not too horrible ..

It is a vertical W. HOffmann - dating 1987 , not yet refurthingized.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQTnRRN1ppZXpPZ3M/edit?usp=sharing

I keep meaning to do a recording when I get a piano that's worth recording my tuning on. My piano is definitely overdue one! I'll take you up on the offer when I do.

I don't see M3's in the temperament octave/range in that file, just M6's.

Kees

Yes they are on an other recorder, and on one string only. I forget.
There are 17 th 10th 15th 5 the 12 th.
Could you graph the 12 th s please.? Thank you.
May be I could record intervals again with a better recorder, the disk was full..

The piano is still moving, I will massage the wire and correct the tuning anyway.

Yes, it doesn't matter if you can discern the beats, it matters if you can tune them.

When I want a clinical ET I will compare intervals by letting them beat 8 times (two beats of sixteenth notes) back and forth and see which one takes longer. Can't do that with a recording.

If I can find the time when I next tune my CW, I will try to figure out how to record the intervals. It is in the same room as the computer. Gosh, I have no idea when that might be. I am up to my ears in Cub Scout activities.

Kees

People can download Audition 3.0 for Windows here for free (after creating an Adobe ID):
http://www.adobe.com/downloads/cs2_downloads/index.html

Would you be good enough to give us a brief heads up on how you use it to get beat rates?

Thanks.

Jeff,

I checked one of the pianos I tuned today. It was an old German 1.6 metre grand, called a Hagspiel. I pitch adjusted and tuned it, unisons as you go, using a 4ths and 5ths temperament.

After tuning the middle, i checked A3 to A4 with tunelab, one string of every note of that ocatve. I could have nit picked that octave before I checked, but left it as is. It sounded pretty good.

A3 - (- 1.2)
A#3 - 0.2
B3 -0.3
C4 - 0.1
C#4 - 0.0
D4 - 1.0
D#4 - 0.1
E4 - 0.7
F4 - 0.5
F#4 - 1.2
G4 - 1.6
G#4 -2.5

M3 B/D# - slightly slower
M3 D/F3 - slightly slower
M3 F/A - slightly slower

M6ths wre all progressive

Hi Isaac,

I have listened to the three samples you posted and I think you have done a great job, really. Tuning that piano-brand is a real challenge... and I also enjoyed your impro.

You know what? Perhaps this time we (meaning we/PW's) will be able to elaborate on a standard...

Regards,

Alfredo
.

Some 12ths don't go through a whole cycle so I can't measure those. Here's what I got for the ones I could see and the M6's:

M6

F3D 8.1
F#D# 8.5
GE 8.8
G#F 10.0
AF# 9.1
A#G 11.5
BG# 11.9
C4A 10.5
C#A# 10.5
DB 13.3
D#C 14.2
EC# 14.9
F4D 12.9
F#D# 16.7
GE 17.5
G#F 16.8

P12

G3 0.30
A# 0.97
B 1.26
C4 1.04
C# 0.58
D 1.5
D# 1.8

Kees

I pitch adjusted and tuned a 1.7 metre August Forster grand this morning, using a 4ths and 5ths temperament,unisons as I go. I did tweak this temperament.

The negatives are in brackets.

A3- (-0.1)
A#3- (-2)
B3- (0.2)
C4- (-0.1)
C#4- (-0.2)
D4- (-0.6)
D#4- 0.4
E4- (-0.3)
F4- (-0.2)
F#4- 0.1
G4- 0.3
G#4- 0.6
A4- 0.2

3rds and 6ths progressive

FWIW

Thanks, Mark:

After my poor evaluation of Kees audio file, I think I will keep my opinions to myself until I post my own audio file and get feedback. I will just have to find the time to squeeze it in.

I just wanted to get back to you with some numbers, as I said I would.

I have recently begun to tune unisons as I go, temperament included, even for pitch adjusting. It has been an interesting experience, particularly, shimming the temperament after the initial setting of it.

All the best with the scouts!