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Mike, my point is that your answers could have been given in such a way that they didn't include a sermon. Believe it or not, human beings are capable of displaying the full range of kindness, love, appreciation, generosity (as well as all the bad stuff), regardless of which deity they do or do not believe in. I know that many religious folk believe they have a monopoly on the good stuff, but those of us who don't subscribe happen to know otherwise.

Anyway - the fact is, if a teacher is able to be as flexible as you with their time, then that means one of two things: they are either of sufficient means that they do not need to work to the limits of their endurance, or they don't have a full schedule. Generosity doesn't necessarily factor into it in the way you think it does. It could, after all, be argued that by allowing the "extra" time between lessons, that you are simply charging a lower hourly rate than you appear to be.

Don't get me wrong - I do understand where you're coming from, but there are many different types of people who teach music, and with widely different life commitments. I, for instance, have a young family, and have to factor in school runs and household chores in how I schedule my students. I have a studio to rent, which needs a minimum number of students to be financially viable. I am largely restricted to working within a fairly narrow evening slot, too.

In my opinion, all of this has nothing to do with being a good or bad teacher, and I would humbly suggest you factor this out of the equation if decide you look for a piano teacher in the future.

OK, but we also have to pay bills. God doesn't pay them, so sometimes we have to teach more people than we would choose to teach if we did not need money to live.

I'm not sure what you are comparing here. Certainly there are people who are so greedy that they only care about money, and obviously that would not make them very good teachers. Is that your point

I think you are off on a God-rant here. I'm not sure if you are talking about what makes good teachers or giving us a sermon.

I suppose there is a distinction: there are clock-watching piano teachers, and there are punctual-to-the-minute piano teachers. The two categories are quite different. IOW, there may be some who are bored and simply teaching for the money, while there are others who - as Ben suggests - are enormously invested in their teaching, but without a spare minute in their schedules.

I know plenty of fine and in-demand piano teachers who are in this second category.

Mike, thank you for answering my question. It does make a difference whether you were writing from what you read about, or your own experiences.

The teaching scenario itself is complicated, even when you look at the "standard" one involving children who begin at the "common" age. It may be more complicated (I'm guessing) than for other instruments because anybody can produce a sound on the piano, and so you have all kinds of people claiming to be piano teachers, and this puts the entire population of teachers into a tight spot.

It gets even more complicated when adult students are involved, and I hesitate to put that into the mix here. (I've written too much about it in the past.) However, I hear you about the tale of the shining 12 year old - this comes up once in a while - and I don't think these teachers have an idea of how hurtful that is. For now, have a look at this site:
http://www.musicalfossils.com/

I wish you only the very best.

Ben, do you mean that God is not paying your bills?

I really don't want to pick fights with anyone, based on their personal beliefs. But I have to say I really get annoyed with sermons. It is the number one thing that drove me away from churches in the first place!

There are also clock-watching parents, they ones who will SCREAM if a lesson starts 2 minutes late but who are just fine with running over an making the next person late.

Then there are people, like me, who have schedules of their own and don't always have time to wait. I have students who literally carve out 30 minutes of time from their insane schedules to take lessons. And the reason that these people have insane schedules is that God has not favored them with a great deal of money and leisure time. Apparently He does not favor us as much as people with more money and loves the 1 percent the most...

I find that religion is a very interesting aspect of life! One that I'm not attached in any way with, but I do consider myself spiritual enough.

I've had one of the best hotel stays of my life when staying with Jaap Cramer (EMF composer) in Texas! He's studied theology to a postgraduate level and is getting ready to be a cleric of some sort.

There are two things that made the most impact to me:

First of all he wasn't pushy. He was NEVER sermoning, or even attempting to persuade me of anything. Thus I kept talking with him, about all things in life...

The second thing is that we have totally different ideas on what religion is all about: For me it's quite simple, I think: I don't care what one believes in, but how that affects his/her life, and thus my life. It's the "real life" impact that matters for me. For him it was the exact opposite: Religion is there only for the spiritual part and he didn't care one bit for the physical part!

There's no need for any fight in this hot headed thread...

BTW, most of the times I refer to gawd, rather than God...

___________________________________________

Keystring,

in short, my (silly) list was a way to explain the 'how far' a student can get, due to whatever reason. I'm not lowering my standards for anyone, but I am altering the ways I teach and the impact I attempt to have at each student depending on them. I benchmark each student with every lesson pretty much!

Thus the list.

What's wrong with having star students who can play anything while you can't? Are you saying you will only study with teachers who don't have star students and/or can't produce star students and/or are incapable of teaching to a high caliber and/or are incompetent to begin with?

But Gary..............you can't get sleep like that at home!

Guys, if you are decent teachers, then you cannot imagine some of the things we encounter. That is to say, you will be aware of the common things such as when child-students come to you with finger numbers written all over the place for years, etc.

Yes - when Mike wishes teachers would work overtime with their students, that is out of touch with reality and not a realistic expectation.

But there is another scenario that you guys may not be familiar and so don't expect, but I have seen it with a friend, and then a (very) few people afterward. She would prepare all week for her lesson. Often when she arrived her teacher sat back comfortably in her chair, and spent half the lesson talking about her young star student, and also detailing plans of how to teach and push him forward. My friend's own lessons lacked direction. The attitude with this kind of teacher is that the older student must be a hobbyist, and the natural wish to socialize with a fellow adult seems to take over. "This is the time for me to put my feet up and relax, before getting to my next 'real' student." Since then I've encountered this story with three other adults.

Another is what one is told. I encountered this once, and virtually when I first had a piano and asked a straightforward question in a forum: some basic technique thing. The response to my technical question was that I will never become a proper pianist because of my age. I had not asked whether I could, or expressed any ambition - but this was volunteered.

When a student of any age starts a new instrument - or even, starts music for the first time - everything is unfamiliar. He is uncoordinated with the piano, and the simplest things are hard just like for a five year old. You guys know this. The new student doesn't know how to sit, how to move, where to find middle C - anything. The new student (any age):

- needs to be given these most basic skills
- the teacher must have the attitude (and convey it) that it is normal to be clumsy in the beginning
- that all students start out this way, and the abilities come with time
- that mundane, simple things, such as reaching for that middle C, are actually important achievements. The teacher should have this attitude and convey it. The student must have the same in order to grow.

Now imagine if these two things happen:
- The new student is being told (maybe repeatedly) about the 12 year old 'star', as though this were the teacher's real interest, and this is being told to him while he is struggling with the likes of "finding middle C"
- The new student is being told, unsolicited, that he will never amount to much.

IF this was Mike's experience, then it was wrong, harmful, and hurtful. He may be saying "Stop telling me about your 12 year old wonder-student. Concentrate on teaching me, and where I am at." And I see no benefit of a teacher telling an adult student of successes she is proud of who are much younger, and especially when coupled with a dire prognosis. If you have a 6 year old, and you tell him "See how well this 12 year old is doing - you'll get there too - he started like you." this is positive. It could even be positive to tell the adult, "This 12 year old was once a beginner just like you."

We don't know the rest. Sometimes students come across poor or misguided teaching. Sometimes they themselves set up things because of how they come across, what they say, what they do - or it can be a mix of attitudes. But this dual scenario can and does happen.

That said, I am trying to stay away from the adult student part of it, because that is a separate scenario.

I believe that Mike is saying that when he is having a lesson as a beginner, he doesn't want to be told about the "star", especially if it happens repeatedly and/or if it takes away from lesson time. If this is coupled with statements of how poorly the student is expected to do, it is demoralizing. Mike can tell us whether or not that is what went on.

Nikolas, I sort of got that. Still I wanted to mention the literal part, because I have encountered where the teaching actually starts with the thought of "where might this student get to career-wise" and then gear even the foundation to that. From everything I have read and know, I am sure you don't do that.

Mike,

" The piano I never EVER found a teacher like Bill and never will. "

Well, I understand your dilemma but disagree. Have you looked?

You mentioned earlier that you wished you could find "the same thing in an obscure profession", or something like that. And I ask again, have you looked? We are professionals, after all, just like any other. You need to shop around a bit, and educate yourself to find a good one.

I mean, you wouldn't just go to the first accountant or attorney you met on the street, and sit there and listen to advice you know is bad, would you? No, of course not! You'd-

1- ask around to see who knows of any good ones.
2- Then you'd interview them to see if they lived up to people's comments.
3- you'd discuss your particular problems with them to hear what their solutions would be.
4- if you didn't like the answer, you'd excuse yourself, leave, and go talk to the next one.
5- if you have lessons with one, and they do something that you don't like or doesn't help you, you'd discuss it with them and tell them that wasn't working.
6- if they don't do better helping you, right then you'd take your business elsewhere, and for any reason you like.

Look, the piano is a much more difficult instrument to play than the banjo. And you'll need help to learn many parts of it. Even playing scales well requires a lot of help. So at some point, you're going to have to go work with a teacher to get past certain hurdles. You might as well get ready to do so now.

As far as generosity goes, I'd like to see you try to get some out of my lawyer(s). Really.

If I understand you correctly (still missing tons of time, but hopefully I'll grab some NIKOLAS time tonight...)

No, I cater for every student, but the list I posted has to do with their potential and will to do something, rather than my doing... Of course I don't kick start on sight reading on a 7 year old... No matter how wrong it may be, I just find it useless at this point and the student too young. If they grow at the age of ten and are still interested in piano, or something like that, then things start to get more serious. Same with scales (as I mentioned above).

The exception of getting a super amazing student is one that scares me... If I'm able to recognize them, I'll just skip ahead into harder stuff and sight reading, and harder theory ahead of time... or something... :-/

I can't think "career wise" on 7 year olds... I can certainly do that at 13 year olds, with solid foundation, but not 7 year olds...

I think we adults have some growing up to do. I have a long career of being student for several instruments. None very good. Piano is barely reaching to an okay level after 13 years of off and on being at it. Anyway it gives me certain credential to speak about it, I think.

There are good teachers and bad ones - very true. All my teachers are / were good except one. I defined good teacher as someone who added value / helped me move forward in music. The one exception is a string teacher I got for my husband and I. I have taken violin for three years as a child. My husband could not even read notes. I explained this on the phone and in person and at the beginning of the lesson. My husband was making those scrappy bad sound and the instrument was not in tune. She kept yelling at him "play A". And started playing with him and marked "good" on his viola book #1. I was horrified, asked around and switched to a new wonderful teacher.

Adults need to grow up - many children are better than us. Don't let it bother you. I once knew a woman (older than 40) broke down in tears just because a six years old child played the same piece she played in the last recital. We have to start from somewhere.

Teacher talking about a star student during your lesson - happens to me too since I take a lesson from a college prof who has some gifted students. If its too much I tell her that I would ask you to give me a make up lesson if she does not shut up. Or just tell her, lets go to lunch and I will hear your story. I make sure she knows my time is precious too. Adults should be able to talk to ones teacher since we are not children.

Adults not amounts to be a concert pianists etc - being a concert pianists sounds like a too much work to me. But if you want it, don't let anyone bother you. Anything is possible if its possible. You know it soon or later.

Bad teachers!
Well I think all teachers are just "different"!

I have had 9 different piano teachers, from Adjudicator/Examiner RCM piano teachers to Casino/piano bar teachers!

I had five classically trained and RCM qualified piano teachers.
I had four "stray dog type" piano teachers. (The stray dog type piano teachers played more than the classical qualified piano teachers.) Some would consider the stray dogs "bad teachers" but I called them "amazing!

Anyways, depending on what you wanted out of piano lessons, I think I learned a great deal from "all" these nine teachers!!

Bad Teacher?

Just the one guy who was an RCM professor classical teacher (had every letter of the alphabet after his name) and in my half hour lesson with him, he left every 10 minutes to go out and have a cigarette!!! So I think I learned NOTHING from him and he spent more time using his fingers to light cigarettes than he did to show me how to play the piano! Maybe I just drove him to smoking! Who knows

... If my mother only knew!!!!!!

Great dress, Diane!!

I think you're reading too much into that post. I don't think the situation is quite like what you're describing, "that he will never amount to much."