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Do either Kluge or Renner manufacture outside of Germany?
#2185650 11/20/13 11:24 AM
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To the best of the forum's collective knowledge:

-- Does Kluge manufacture any keyboard assemblies outside of Germany?

-- Does Renner manufacture any piano actions outside of Germany?

Larry.

Re: Do either Kluge or Renner manufacture outside of Germany?
iLaw #2185732 11/20/13 01:38 PM
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Does Renner manufacture any piano actions outside of Germany?


As I read in an official Renner report they do not make parts outside Germany but recently opened up an assembly operation in China that only serves the domestic Asian market (identified with special color felt):

Quote
He also said that Renner sales are on track to rise an additional 25% in 2012. Much of the growth in the piano business is occurring in Asia, where Renner recently established a 38,000-square-foot assembly operation that serves only the domestic Asian market. The production of the action components is done in Germany, to protect proprietary processes. Parts are then shipped to China where they are assembled and identified with special color felt.


Renner Report Vol.3 Issue 3

schwammerl.

Re: Do either Kluge or Renner manufacture outside of Germany?
iLaw #2185734 11/20/13 01:42 PM
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Special color felt? Where?

Re: Do either Kluge or Renner manufacture outside of Germany?
Piano*Dad #2185744 11/20/13 01:55 PM
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Piano*Dad,

I do no know more than was is written in the Renner report that I inserted.

schwammerl

Re: Do either Kluge or Renner manufacture outside of Germany?
iLaw #2185823 11/20/13 04:25 PM
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The fact that Renner, by the way one of over 8000 other German manufacturers, opens an assembly plant in China just shows how far we have lagged behind in our understanding how business is done in today's world.

It's becoming the very difference between those who wish to be economically successful versus those who do not.

China is no longer the low boy on the block and if you wish to sell there, they are increasingly demanding to "make there"

Far from 'hyping' or 'endorsing' anybody, we would be better advised to watch Angela's ubiquitous smile in her face.

Perhaps she knows something we don't.

Or "don't want" to....

Feels good?

Not exactly.

But that's where we're at.

Norbert

Last edited by Norbert; 11/20/13 05:02 PM.

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Re: Do either Kluge or Renner manufacture outside of Germany?
iLaw #2185843 11/20/13 04:56 PM
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Maybe the special color felt will be gray...

I can see it now: "Gray market Renner actions--assembled in China--make their way into North American market!"


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Re: Do either Kluge or Renner manufacture outside of Germany?
iLaw #2185848 11/20/13 05:06 PM
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I can see it now: "Gray market Renner actions--assembled in China--make their way into North American market!"


Not if you're thinking about the top Euro makers including Estonia.

Chinese assembly will be strictly for Chinese manufacturers.
Renner is not exactly about to tamper with their reputation.

Which may very well mean some Chinese pianos may actually have their Chinese assembled action in near future.

The show goes on...

Norbert


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Re: Do either Kluge or Renner manufacture outside of Germany?
Norbert #2185910 11/20/13 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Norbert
Not if you're thinking about the top Euro makers including Estonia.

Hunh? I'm not thinking of any Euro maker, top bottom or otherwise. The thrust of my joke was that the actions would wind up overseas, not that they'd arrive installed in an Estonia or any other piano.

Originally Posted by Norbert
Chinese assembly will be strictly for Chinese manufacturers.

If I read the comments above correctly, they will be assembled in China only for consumption in the Chinese' domestic market, not just restricted to Chinese manufacturers (otherwise they will end up in foreign markets).

Originally Posted by Norbert
Renner is not exactly about to tamper with their reputation.

I beg to differ. Implementing the above plan is taking a calculated risk, and assumes that they can keep the products segregated by marketplace.


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Re: Do either Kluge or Renner manufacture outside of Germany?
iLaw #2185997 11/20/13 10:55 PM
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I beg to differ. Implementing the above plan is taking a calculated risk, and assumes that they can keep the products segregated by marketplace.


In this case, Audi, Mercedes,Volkswagen and certainly GM are taking incalculable risks making cars in China.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvl5Gan69Wo

Norbert

Last edited by Norbert; 11/20/13 11:06 PM.

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Re: Do either Kluge or Renner manufacture outside of Germany?
Norbert #2186022 11/20/13 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Norbert
In this case, Audi, Mercedes,Volkswagen and certainly GM are taking incalculable risks making cars in China.

I don't know about "incalculable"--that's your characterization of the magnitude--but every business decision includes a balance of risk and reward. So, of course risk is involved.

But my comment above was largely based on your assertion that Renner wouldn't "tamper" with their reputation by allowing actions assembled in China to leave that market:

Originally Posted by Norbert
Chinese assembly will be strictly for Chinese manufacturers.
Renner is not exactly about to tamper with their reputation.

Personally, I'm sure Chinese workers are capable of assembling piano actions, but I also know that some snobs and/or bigots would turn their nose up at them (so the "risk" is really more one of perception, imo). Then, of course, there's that nut-job on here who seems to revel in every Chinese advancement in the industry, as if he's personally responsible for it, rather than it simply being the result of the dual forces of globalization and the growing demand for pianos in China. wink


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Re: Do either Kluge or Renner manufacture outside of Germany?
iLaw #2186159 11/21/13 08:11 AM
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Without reading the whole thread: Kluge are not to my knowledge making outside Germany. Incidentally they are owned by Steinway as far as I know.

Renner do manufacture in China, or at least will start soon. Many Chinese actions are exceptionally well made and regulate beautifully, and I know of some exceptional workshops that use Chinese made actions on their rebuilds and they feel as good as any action. Yeah there are a few that are not great but the Chinese actions I have played have been fine.

My Brodmann had a good action although it suffered from loose bushings, but the action was fully rebuilt, recentred and serviced, voiced and regulated before it was sold, and it is now playing exceptionally well. Anyway it is no longer mine.

Re: Do either Kluge or Renner manufacture outside of Germany?
iLaw #2186167 11/21/13 08:27 AM
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Just wondering:

Are the Renner actions patented? If not (or even if so), is there anything that stops the Chinese from copying it?


Re: Do either Kluge or Renner manufacture outside of Germany?
iLaw #2186291 11/21/13 12:08 PM
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Well, Renner isn't a company that designs actions, but a company that builds actions to the designs that the manufacturers give them. So for instance, the renner action on a Hamburg Steinway will be different to the renner action on a Bluthner, so I would imagine that Renner aren't patented.

Actually I don't think there's much to prevent the Chinese from copying anything, because they have different laws in China about that kind of thing don't they?

Re: Do either Kluge or Renner manufacture outside of Germany?
Joseph Fleetwood #2186353 11/21/13 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by joe80

Actually I don't think there's much to prevent the Chinese from copying anything, because they have different laws in China about that kind of thing don't they?


I can't address the enforcement of contract or intellectual property rights in China under Chinese law, but there would be various legal means available in the U.S. to protect against Chinese (or other foreign) goods imported into the U.S. in violation of U.S. contract or IP law.

Larry.

Re: Do either Kluge or Renner manufacture outside of Germany?
iLaw #2186379 11/21/13 02:22 PM
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As schwammerl reported, it is the proprietary processes, not the design that is protected. Having toured Hailun's piano factory and separate action factory, they were open to photo/video their piano production, but we were asked not to inside the action factory because of their proprietary processes. It was fascinating to see, so much done by hand but key steps done by uniquely designed machines. So many steps...in addition to so much preparation of the wood and felts.

FWIW, that factory supplies to many others besides Hailun including many names that would surprise the public. Why are these performance-level makers risking that legacy? Because they make good stuff. For Renner, the move is about survival and relevancy, not just opening a new market or tariff advantages which are surely attractive to their business. I have no knowledge about Kluge nor rumors of such a move.


Sam Bennett
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Re: Do either Kluge or Renner manufacture outside of Germany?
PianoWorksATL #2186403 11/21/13 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by PianoWorksATL
FWIW, that factory supplies to many others besides Hailun including many names that would surprise the public. Why are these performance-level makers risking that legacy? Because they make good stuff. For Renner, the move is about survival and relevancy, not just opening a new market or tariff advantages which are surely attractive to their business.

Those observations illustrate many of the dynamics in play within the international piano market space!


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