Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Pianist faces prison for playing her piano.

I am fortunate in my neighbors. A couple of years ago we were talking about whether my music disturbed one of them, and he assured my that his TV or other white noise mostly masked it, but he had noticed significant improvement in the rag set

I now use my digital all the time, and I think he can't hear it as often.

Cathy

Noise pollution is a real problem. I've experienced it. It does affect your health.

We should all be considerate of others.

Something like this would be more of a civil lawsuit so i doubt prison, it's also just another one of those crazy cases people who are desperate for attention do that the media also loves to do so they can just bend the facts to make something out of nothing.

Lesson to be learned here, It's never a good idea to take news media outlets seriously or ever watch them in the first place, and secondly don't live in a third world country, that never goes over good.

Agree with everything except the last part. I don't think Spain would be considered a third world country.

Remember: Your Rights end where mine begin - a civilized rule that teenage boys with their blasting car speakers and old, be-wiskered hippee bikers with their purposely ineffective mufflers totally disregard...

If local press is not inventing lies, then I wouldn´t be surprised to find her sentenced guilty. I would more question if she should face prison then, or if it wouldn´t be better for her to become forced to attend a psychotherapist, then.

You have to know that Spain is a very beautiful country, but also that it is in severe crisis because of a widespread unethical behaviour everywhere in the society. From the politician to the pianist to the bus driver to the neighbor, shallow friendliness to the public and a concealed deep egoism here unfortunately rules daily life.
I am very sad to have come over years to the following conclusion about the country I am living in: this country is not in crisis because of being a putative victim of a global market, but because it´s society internally is not united but split into too many entities gaining personal advantage only.

The Spanish government once placed commercials to attract more international tourists to visit Spain, using the slogan: "Spain is different!".
- Yes, it is.

It's amazing the kind of property you can buy in the USA for that kind of money, here in the UK you would get little more than Tent for those prices.

My Son lived in Spain for ten years and he said that people were always wary of being subjected to a Denuncia , I believe this could be an archaic legal procedure left over from the times of General Franco.

[/quote]My Son lived in Spain for ten years and he said that people were always wary of being subjected to a Denuncia , I believe this could be an archaic legal procedure left over from the times of General Franco. [/quote]

This comment is simply ridiculous, you must just have remembered about the existence of Franco and think that anything comes from that period and the "secret police". It's just as ridiculous as saying that all white people in the USA are racist or that one can never trust a German. History is not to be forgotten, but not always explains what really happens now.

We are talking simply about lack of manners, and this is unfortunately too extended in Spain. Keep in mind that people there normally live in tall buildings of flats. Houses are mostly in small villages or as second homes in "urbanizaciones de chalets". Add to that the poor quality of construction standards, so not only you have air noise contamination but also structural (vibrations, for instance).

Spanish people tend to be noisy, both with their voices and with their actions. I'm Spanish myself, I know what I'm talking about. If you have the bad luck of having a noisy neighbour you were stuck in heck. So I do welcome that RECENTLY there is far more awareness of the injustice many people are suffering. You can put a Denuncia for anything that is not right, just as in all other countries people can report people who go against the law. That is not obsolete, it's just a way of legally getting things right and I'm sure it's something that also exists in your own country.

As I said in another post about this same topic -sorry for the repetition but I read that thread before this one- I'm completely with the "crazy neighbour". If you live in a flat (and in Spain it is very rare that people live in houses) and are a professional player/teacher or a player who intends to spend hours and hours playing every day, SPEND A FORTUNE SOUNDPROOFING THE PIANO ROOM, MOVE TO A HOUSE OR GET A DIGITAL PIANO!!! (In person and if affected I would be not only shouting this but possibly also slapping the culprit's face with every word... if I had suffered all those years I'm sure I could claim mental issues).

There is this mentality that "En mi casa hago lo que me da la gana" (= In my own house I do whatever I wish), which would be quite acceptable IF we were talking about a house, but 99% of the time it is a FLAT, not a house.

Bad mannered people also said: "la gallina de arriba caga a la de abajo" (= The hen on top shits on the hen below). I guess for many people being a shitting hen is more important than having good manners. And I bet this family is like that.

There are no many practising places in Spain. We don't usually have churches with piano/organs... but if you have the money to pursue a musical career with a good piano, tuning expenses and music lessons then you simply have to have the money to soundproof your place. OR go for a digital piano!

My uncle and auntie both are musicians, pianists, were professors at the Royal Conservatory of Music in Madrid, and guess what... they spent LOTS of money making sure that their piano room in their flat was absolutely sound-proofed.

Making noise can be very pleasant to the one who makes it, but an absolute torture to the ones who have to listen without wanting to. Intrusive music that is not wanted is also noise for those who suffer it.

As per the poster saying that Spain is a 3rd world country... in manners I would agree... but as per the rest, travel a bit and you'll find that your own country is certainly not the best. Have you ever been to Europe, or Spain recently? Plain ignorance if you speak of what you don't know like that.

Amen, Eva.

My hometown is one of the most noisy among spanish. In fact, noise is our main concern if we attend at the number of complaints made by cityzens. Traffic, airplanes, midnight trucks picking up rubbish, neighbours tv's and bar terraces (since we can no longer smoke inside places, each bar has its own/not always legal/noisy as heck terrace, right in the street). Mix this much up with narrow streets, wich multiply the echo,and so-so windows and you got it. Very stressing, at least to me.
So, I understand that this pianist has to be blamed. I do practice right above my neighbours' children room and, despite I use a DP, the first thing I did was asking at what time they went to bed, and if I disturbed them...No complains, so far.

Those of us who live in Apartment Houses are familiar with finding the right time to practice and being considerate of neighbors - where I live, you can sing, practice piano etc from 10AM - 9PM. I'm lucky because most neighbors are not home during the day and by the way, I wish I were, I wish I may but I happy I can do what I do.

If I understand this problem - the neighbor moved out a few years ago and is now filing a complaint. It seems that the District Attorney would have more important things to do than take the pianist to court - and it's hard to believe that she could go to prison for practicing the piano and not be allowed to play for some time. If she gets off, she should move to some other place for the duration.

It's hard to believe that anything like this can happen - there must be a better way to settle this than this - makes me wonder what Judge Judy would do.

For me it is always the one who creates the problem the one who needs to solve it.

One thing are normal living noises, another thing are constant noises that do not have to be expected. Nobody is forcing this person to practice with an upright or a grand piano in her flat, nobody is forcing her to do so for hours each day, for years and years... it is HER choice.

As such, she's the one who has to be sure that she's not disturbing anybody. Yes, sometimes people are not at home, but what if they are most of the day? Not everybody is working (right now there are lots of unemployed people in Spain as it's still taking the worst of the crisis). They are stressed enough.

If she finds out that she can only practice for a couple hours a day and not in one go, but one hour am and another pm, would she accept that? Keeping in mind that any noise at all is intruding in her neighbours right to enjoy her own place, so even a couple hours is generous. This might work for somebody who is not intending to be professional. If you are, then you have to be more considerate with the noise. Yes, noise, not music!

If you live in a flat, go for digital piano, insulate it properly or move out to a detached house. That is the only way you are respecting other people's right.

I would legally force her to practice with a digital piano. They are easy to find, cheap and will help her practice at home. If she doesn't like them, go for a silent "real" piano, but there is absolutely no reason or excuse for her to be an annoyance to her neighbours.

As per filling the denuncia after selling the house, it might have taken all that time to sell her place and find another one without a pianist! She will surely ask if any neighbour is playing the piano after her nightmare

It appears that her neighbor waited a long time before filing a complaint. I can understand being annoyed with hours of practice, but if that's the case, why did her neighbor wait so long to "sue" - I think that this neighbor and the pianist could have come to some resolution before going to the DA and why would any DA take on a case of this kind. Is there a Small Claims Court in Spain? Also prison time is excessive. Isn't there a Statute of Limitations? I admit to not knowing the ins and outs of the legal system. It would have been better to go to Arbitration if that can be done in Spain.

I wonder what has happened - is this case settled? Hope the pianist is free to play or has moved to another country or someplace where she can.

I guess that is the time it took for the neighbour to sell her place and move out. Pity if one has to leave her own place to get some rest!

I'm sure she tried to tell them many times that the piano was annoying her, but most people in Spain will reply those 2 lines to any complaint: "I do whatever I want in my own house" and "The hen on top shits on the hen below".

It's only very recently that complaints about noise are being taken seriously. So much that now the Courts can expel anybody from their own house for 3 months if proven guilty of excessive noise and lack of respect to their neighbours. But this is very recent.

You can play, just make sure that you don't disturb others. And what's the problem with using a silent piano if one lives in a flat and is a professional player? Why making your poor neighbours suffer because of your hobby/profession??? If you only practice one hour a day or so there wouldn't be any problem, it would be easy to find an hour that the neighbour can accept. But if we are talking of somebody practicing for many hours every day for years.... I would be the first one complaining.

Arbitration is not compulsive, it's many times done by the police in order to avoid costly legal procedures, and they really only listen to both parts and make them sit down in front of the arbitrator. If the guilt part doesn't change their actions -and many won't- legal system is the only way. Of course after complaining to all the building neighbours and try to shame the guilty one, but at the end of the day only those who suffer the noise will be supportive.

Making sure that he/she's not disturbing is the pianist's problem, not the neighbours'.

Here is a more in depth article about it:
Spanish pianist could face jail for practicing

Let's see, Sonia Bosom suffered "insomnia, anxiety, panic attacks and gynecological problems", and now she "hates pianos so much she can't even stand to see them in a film"? Gynecological problems and panic attacks? Really, from a piano? I'd say this is a person who has problems all right, some big ones. And it looks like she has found someone to (try and) blame them on. Right, make the piano player pay because she's been missing work. This sounds like more than a big stretch to me. Hopefully the legal system in Spain requires the burden of proof to be on the plaintiff. If so, Sonia should have a major, if not impossible task ahead of her. Whatever case Sonia makes I bet can be easily challenged by a good attorney and a couple of top expert witnesses.

Furthermore, since she moved six years ago and is just now getting around to suing, I'd say makes this a civil case, not a criminal one, and therefore the threat of jail time would be totally inappropriate. What the article doesn't say, is whether the "prosecutors" are civil attorneys or or government prosecutors, what we would call District Attorneys here in the U.S. If they're civil, they should probably go pound sand. Either way, maybe Laia Martin should investigate any misconduct on the part of the prosecutors, she may have a case of her own.

The article goes on to say the authorities measured the noise level to be 10 db above the 30 db limit. That's 40 db SPL folks. Do any of you understand how quiet that is? It is significantly quieter than normal conversation, something above a whisper. If Laia was doing this during day time hours, this should not even be in court. If she really was doing all hours, say after 10 pm, then it could be considered a nuisance, in which case she should have been fined long ago. But not six years later. The claims are completely outrageous, and so is the threat of jail time.

Ordinarily I reserve comment on court cases, because after all, I'm not there sitting in the jury box listening to testimony. But gynecological problems and panic attacks? Give me a break. And as far as Sonia not being able to look at a piano in a movie, or drag her rear end in to work each day, I can just hear the violins (no, make that a piano) playing "My Heart Bleeds for You". Oh, the poor dear.

Maybe you would understand it better if you had a professional drum player on the flat above? 8 hours of noise, ops, sorry... music, of course!

My posture when confronted with injustice is always going to be to defend the innocent part. If one creates the noise simply because one wants to, one has to avoid creating a problem for somebody else.

I can only say that nowadays there is absolutely no excuse for a pianist to live in a flat and annoy her neighbours with her practising. Go get a silent piano if the touch is so important for you! Leave the headphones out only for the time that your neighbour graciously allows you, and thank her for that.

Of course that "insomnia, anxiety, panic attacks and gynaecological problems" are connected to a stressful situation. You have no right to laugh about those matters and minimise the neighbours' problem as something non-existent or exaggerated.

FYI, the limit of 30db is the maximum allowed for a bedroom after 10pm... and it's measured with doors and windows closed. It's the noise that comes from the problematic neighbour to the victim's place. Not the level of noise at the origin, but what can be heard at the victim's place. It has to register for enough time to be considered important too, and normally it will be measured in several occasions (without telling the noise maker about the measurements, obviously).

But what about the daily noises? Those are a nightmare too!

Really, it's just a matter of manners, so rather than making fun of the victim here, look at why should anybody play piano in a flat for hours when there are options to avoid creating problems to her neighbours.

That Laia is definitely a shitting hen... anybody who says that she is not creating the problem should definitely live under a neighbour from heck too.

I guess you see no problem in practicing a piano for hours no end, for years, in a flat? DO we have another shitting hen here? Is really that your attitude?

I don't care about this particular case and when it happened, why is it coming out now... I don't care, I do care about the lack of manners in a building of flats and this unreasonable posture of shitting hens. Too many of them!

An OT personal comment about the effects of noise: people who've been around here for a few years may remember that I had been moaning for at least a year and a half about how relentless migraines were taking a huge toll on my piano playing. What I didn't necessarily go into was the cause of the migraines.

Our townhouse was next to the one occupied by the complex manager, and they got a dog. These people were neither considerate or very smart, and their stupidity enabled them to accidentally train their dog to bark loudly and continuously whenever they played with it. Plus it went off into paroxysms of barking whenever someone knocked at the door (relatively common for an apartment manager), and didn't stop barking until the "iintruder" was long out of sight.

Because this was the apartment manager, we had no-one to complain to. When we (on several occasions) politely asked them to please not lock their dog out on the patio howling (when they didn't want to deal with its indoor barking), they completely blew us off.

I started having migranes shortly after the dog moved in, and had them continuously for a year and a half. The migraines persisted in spite of my Dr. and I trying a vast range of migraine preventative medications (each with their unique profile of bizarre side effects).

So I moved away from the dog, and have not had a single migraine in the 4 months since moving.

Note: I love dogs. I've had dogs most of my adult life. I even liked this dog, and petted it whenever I ran across it being walked. It was the owners who were @$$wipes.

Evamar,

Did you miss that authorities only measured 40 db? Or are you ignoring how low of a level that actually is? Your comment about a drummer is inappropriate and it sounds like you are trying to incite a spurious argument to bolster your position.

I never said manners were not important. Nor did I laugh about it, or say Laia had no responsibility.

I sat on a jury once where a lady in a sedan rear ended a fellow driving an old full size pick up. She bent his bumper, and promptly bought him a new one. He had a heart attack shortly after the accident and sued her, claiming the stress from the accident caused his heart attack. None of us on the jury bought that one, particularly when we found out he was a life long smoker. When the defense attorney asked the plaintiff's own heart doctor whether his heart attack was caused by the accident or his smoking, his response was "It is impossible for medical science to quantify". Those are magic words for this case as well, at least for the outrageous claim of gynecological problems and panic attacks. Claiming PTSD for 40 db of piano playing is a big stretch.

I also clearly stated "If she really was doing it at all hours, say after 10 pm, then it could be considered a nuisance, in which case she should have been fined long ago. But not six years later.", which you have chosen to ignore. Let the punishment fit the "crime", the threat of jail time is simply outrageous.

I missed nothing. The LEGAL limit of external noise to suffer in a bedroom at night is 30db. With doors and windows closed. They registered 40db, so this person was suffering of too much noise in her personal space. That's it. And yes, it is after 10pm. And normally it's not registered once in a short moment, but on several occasions and checking the length of the noises. So if they said that there were noises, believe it, there were noises.

You DID laugh at the victim:
Let's see, Sonia Bosom suffered "insomnia, anxiety, panic attacks and gynecological problems", and now she "hates pianos so much she can't even stand to see them in a film"? Gynecological problems and panic attacks? Really, from a piano? I'd say this is a person who has problems all right, some big ones. And it looks like she has found someone to (try and) blame them on.

But gynecological problems and panic attacks? Give me a break. And as far as Sonia not being able to look at a piano in a movie, or drag her rear end in to work each day, I can just hear the violins (no, make that a piano) playing "My Heart Bleeds for You". Oh, the poor dear.

What is that other that making fun of a victim, and minimising and ridiculing her problems?

Especially when all this could be easily solved by the pianist having good manners and using a silent!

As I said, I will always defend the victim, and it is very clear who is it here. I don't care about the timing and other circumstances, the pianist is a shitting hen and there are far too many of those in the world.

You can do anything you want until you intrude in other people's freedom, and intruding in the personal life and space of a neighbour with noises for hours every day for years cannot be more intruding and stressful. Of course it affects your health and other parts of your life, you have nerve breakdowns in your own house every day for hours!

So yes... a s****** hen and a victim. No doubt about it. You can be a pianist, but that is no excuse for bad manners and torture.

SOrry, as s******* is considered offensive, I have been told that I can use Defecation, so please read "defecating hen" Thanks!

This is an extreme case. Why has this dragged on for so long over so many years.