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Re: Chinese pianos: next chapter coming
Mark VC #2182958 11/15/13 05:06 PM
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Does anyone know what percentage of Pearl River's pianos are sold in China?


"Pearl River .... It is the first Chinese piano manufacturer whose annual output and sales volume exceed 100,000, and its domestic market share remains at 20% or more. In 2014, when the investment project of the company is finished, its piano output and sales volume will climb to 160,000 units/year.."

In general...."In 2012, China’s piano output reached 379,746 units, accounting for 76.9% of the global piano output; in 2010-2012, the piano import volume surpassed the export volume in China, helping China be a leading piano importer in the world."

Global and China Piano Industry 2012-2013

schwammerl.

Re: Chinese pianos: next chapter coming
Grandman #2182975 11/15/13 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Grandman

I think the big mistake here is in lumping all Chinese pianos into a single category. Among makes, there are differences in quality and sound. And no, I don't agree that certain Chinese pianos are only appropriate for entry level players.


Of course, I'm generalizing. I'm referring to the majority of Chinese pianos that they're producing now and have been for years/decades. It's a slow turn-over industry so it takes a while for the older/entry level pianos to make their way out of the system.

I'd like to try some of these, but there isn't an approachable dealer in the SF/Oakland area. There are some in San Jose which I'll try to check out when I'm down there.



Re: Chinese pianos: next chapter coming
jim ialeggio #2183092 11/15/13 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jim ialeggio


To repeat, my take is I welcome the Chinese as equals playing according to the same rules, and actually paying their employees something that resembles a developed world living wage. Until then, they are gutting the market with the express intent of putting the competition out of business.

Jim Ialeggio


You mean like what we did in North America from say about 1800 until the 1920's in order to build the manufacturing empire that dominated the world for a while? With people/kids working in sweat shops for 18 hours per day without benefits or safety enforcement?

We cannot throw stones at others just because we did it first and "progressed" past that point.

Jonathan

Re: Chinese pianos: next chapter coming
Norbert #2183109 11/15/13 10:32 PM
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Always amuses me when America complains about theft of intellectual property. Go back a bit in history and they paid no royalties on the likes of Gilbert & Sullivan.


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Re: Chinese pianos: next chapter coming
Grandman #2183111 11/15/13 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Grandman
Here is a guy who owns 2 Perzina grands and he is not what I would call an entry level player:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1zjhBSdie4&list=UUxgsLw65rrsHZoswN6TAAnw
The video, uploaded by "Feeburg Pianos" states: "Perzina grand pianos provided by Freeburg Pianos - Exclusive Perzina Dealer".
This is a promotional video by a dealer for his product. Most likely, the bank owns these pianos... wink

So what is your point?

PS: I would not judge a tone by the audio in a youtube video, and these pianos are no exception - the sound is strange. I would have to hear them in person or in a high quality recording.


JG
Re: Chinese pianos: next chapter coming
Jonathan Alford #2183112 11/15/13 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Alford
We cannot throw stones at others just because we did it first and "progressed" past that point.Jonathan
By that logic we should not oppose oppression of women and minorities, slavery, genocide and many other very evil things anywhere in the world.


JG
Re: Chinese pianos: next chapter coming
Jonathan Alford #2183116 11/15/13 10:54 PM
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So we should applaud the Chinese for repeating the injustices in western history?


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Chinese pianos: next chapter coming
Norbert #2183119 11/15/13 11:00 PM
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If a Chinese piano maker, (or any other maker for that matter), would set up independent testing of comparative durability, publish the results, and establish that their new $40K piano will outwear any other made-then they will be competitive.

No one has done comparative testing of piano durability.

I do know from my experience servicing pianos for over 40 years that the methods and materials I use in my rebuilds-make more durable and easier to maintain pianos than any maker of new pianos in the world.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Chinese pianos: next chapter coming
Supply #2183133 11/15/13 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Supply
Originally Posted by Grandman
Here is a guy who owns 2 Perzina grands and he is not what I would call an entry level player:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1zjhBSdie4&list=UUxgsLw65rrsHZoswN6TAAnw
The video, uploaded by "Feeburg Pianos" states: "Perzina grand pianos provided by Freeburg Pianos - Exclusive Perzina Dealer".
This is a promotional video by a dealer for his product. Most likely, the bank owns these pianos... wink

So what is your point?

PS: I would not judge a tone by the audio in a youtube video, and these pianos are no exception - the sound is strange. I would have to hear them in person or in a high quality recording.


Christopher Tavernier owns two Perzina grand pianos:

http://www.freeburgpianos.com/who-is-our-favorite-piano-prodigy/

If you read my response closely, my point is that certain Chinese made pianos are not "only appropriate" for entry level players. There seems to be an implication that every advanced player owns a so called tier 1 piano, which just isn't so. Moreover, there are differences among makes of Chinese pianos like any other country producing pianos.

Further, I know what a Perzina sounds like because I happen to own one. I chose to purchase it not because it was all I could afford, but because I was really impressed by it. It's funny how if a "non-tier 1" piano sounds great on youtube, somehow something must be flawed (the speakers, recording equipment, etc.) Yet others on these forums have posted video and recordings of artists playing tier 1 pianos as examples of their sound quality. Right now, its the best I can do for you. I can list a number of things about the Perzina build quality and sound that make it an impressive piano but that's the topic of another thread. And yes, some of us do love our Chinese made pianos. Nothing wrong with that. I don't feel like I've settled for anything. And oh, I don't work for Freeburg nor am I a dealer. I'm just a piano lover in Southern California, much too far away from them.

Last edited by Grandman; 11/15/13 11:47 PM.

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Re: Chinese pianos: next chapter coming
BornInTheUSA #2183136 11/15/13 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelh
I'd like to try some of these, but there isn't an approachable dealer in the SF/Oakland area. There are some in San Jose which I'll try to check out when I'm down there.

How about the shop that treated Steve Jobs fairly! wink



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Re: Chinese pianos: next chapter coming
Supply #2183140 11/15/13 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Supply
Originally Posted by Jonathan Alford
We cannot throw stones at others just because we did it first and "progressed" past that point.Jonathan
By that logic we should not oppose oppression of women and minorities, slavery, genocide and many other very evil things anywhere in the world.


Based on these series of videos, I don't see a stereotypical sweatshop. I see a modern facility using high tech equipment to produce their pianos in a humane manner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dipxeDV2VW8&feature=c4-overview&list=UUAyApMsH3DslDtxdZrgnQng

Last edited by Grandman; 11/15/13 11:45 PM.

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Re: Chinese pianos: next chapter coming
Norbert #2183141 11/15/13 11:55 PM
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I was not commenting on how brand X pianos are manufactured. I was commenting on the ridiculous sweeping statement made. Or maybe I should call it a dangerous and irresponsible attitude....


JG
Re: Chinese pianos: next chapter coming
Retsacnal #2183161 11/16/13 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Originally Posted by michaelh
I'd like to try some of these, but there isn't an approachable dealer in the SF/Oakland area. There are some in San Jose which I'll try to check out when I'm down there.

How about the shop that treated Steve Jobs fairly! wink


Yep, like I said, "approachable." That shop doesn't exist to me.

Re: Chinese pianos: next chapter coming
Supply #2183246 11/16/13 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Supply
By that logic we should not oppose oppression of women and minorities, slavery, genocide and many other very evil things anywhere in the world.


Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
So we should applaud the Chinese for repeating the injustices in western history?


Yea easy to say from your high horse, how else do you want them to compete ? With the "fair and nice" rules you set up ? fairness is a privilege that comes with wealth and capitalism is evil in itself. The only reason you see what china does as injustice is because it is hurting and threatening you financially.

Last edited by Eddyakmow; 11/16/13 07:16 AM.
Re: Chinese pianos: next chapter coming
Grandman #2183248 11/16/13 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Grandman
Originally Posted by Supply
Originally Posted by Grandman
Here is a guy who owns 2 Perzina grands and he is not what I would call an entry level player:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1zjhBSdie4&list=UUxgsLw65rrsHZoswN6TAAnw
The video, uploaded by "Feeburg Pianos" states: "Perzina grand pianos provided by Freeburg Pianos - Exclusive Perzina Dealer".
This is a promotional video by a dealer for his product. Most likely, the bank owns these pianos... wink

So what is your point?

PS: I would not judge a tone by the audio in a youtube video, and these pianos are no exception - the sound is strange. I would have to hear them in person or in a high quality recording.


Christopher Tavernier owns two Perzina grand pianos:

http://www.freeburgpianos.com/who-is-our-favorite-piano-prodigy/

If you read my response closely, my point is that certain Chinese made pianos are not "only appropriate" for entry level players. There seems to be an implication that every advanced player owns a so called tier 1 piano, which just isn't so. Moreover, there are differences among makes of Chinese pianos like any other country producing pianos.

Further, I know what a Perzina sounds like because I happen to own one. I chose to purchase it not because it was all I could afford, but because I was really impressed by it. It's funny how if a "non-tier 1" piano sounds great on youtube, somehow something must be flawed (the speakers, recording equipment, etc.) Yet others on these forums have posted video and recordings of artists playing tier 1 pianos as examples of their sound quality. Right now, its the best I can do for you. I can list a number of things about the Perzina build quality and sound that make it an impressive piano but that's the topic of another thread. And yes, some of us do love our Chinese made pianos. Nothing wrong with that. I don't feel like I've settled for anything. And oh, I don't work for Freeburg nor am I a dealer. I'm just a piano lover in Southern California, much too far away from them.


Predicting the future is always difficult and I'll leave that to others. Instead, I just wanted to mention that about 1 1/2 years ago I was in a neighbor's house and noticed a grand piano in his living room. It turned out to be a Perzina of about the size of a C3. I asked if I could play it for a few minutes and was more than astonished at how good it sounded. The action was a bit heavy, but the sound was simply amazing--better than most pianos of its size--even in comparison to some of the high-priced brands. I immediately tried to find a dealer in the greater Boston area, and was disappointed when I found none.

Re: Chinese pianos: next chapter coming
Norbert #2183302 11/16/13 10:52 AM
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Okay, folks, I'll admit that I've enjoyed reading this thread myself, though I don't have anything to add

Except... it seems to be heading into the realm of politics and ideology that does not best serve the forum. I hope this message serves as an appropriate warning. If not, well, you all know what happens next...

Rick


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Re: Chinese pianos: next chapter coming
Eddyaknow #2183304 11/16/13 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Eddyakmow
Originally Posted by Supply
By that logic we should not oppose oppression of women and minorities, slavery, genocide and many other very evil things anywhere in the world.


Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
So we should applaud the Chinese for repeating the injustices in western history?


Yea easy to say from your high horse, how else do you want them to compete ? With the "fair and nice" rules you set up ? fairness is a privilege that comes with wealth and capitalism is evil in itself. The only reason you see what china does as injustice is because it is hurting and threatening you financially.


How about if we leave the political aspects out of the discussion and restrict ourselves to discussing the pianos coming from China?


Greg
Re: Chinese pianos: next chapter coming
Rickster #2183469 11/16/13 04:32 PM
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I suspect that $40,000 Chinese pianos (or whatever their inflation-adjusted cost would be at that point) will be taken a lot more seriously, when China's GDP exceeds that of the US and we're relegated to being "Number 2" in the world.

Chinese pianos continue to improve year to year, and will continue to cannibalize sales at the lower end of the piano market, utilizing their increasing quality. At some point, the Chinese will be able to produce pianos that may rival or exceed the quality and sound - that those pricey German piano brands now possess. When that time arrives ...and if this forum is still around, I imagine there will be several threads lamenting the "demise" of these noble brands.

Chinese pianos sell well to those of us that might want a new instrument, but are simply not able to afford that new Steinway or many of the excellent Japanese or European brands. Not all of us can go schlepping endlessly around the country or world in search of that perfect "previously owned", "dream piano" at an affordable price. These pianos represent an acceptable compromise to many middle-class folks who would otherwise end up with a digital piano in its place.

I know there are many people on the forum that look askance at those of us who end up purchasing these pianos. But, in my case, I played (badly at the time!grin ) enough high-end instruments to get a feel for what I might be missing. Did the Steinway M that I played, sound better than my Ritmuller GH-170R? It sure did! But, to me, given my economic circumstances, it wasn't $55,000 better!

The Chinese piano brands supply a certain market segment just as the Japanese once did, and if they continue to go upscale, they will find resistance points that will begin to decrease as their "perceived quality" rises. I guess "Ming Vases" might have been relatively inexpensive at some point too! grin

Last edited by Emissary52; 11/16/13 05:26 PM.

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Re: Chinese pianos: next chapter coming
BornInTheUSA #2183537 11/16/13 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by michaelh
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Originally Posted by michaelh
I'd like to try some of these, but there isn't an approachable dealer in the SF/Oakland area. There are some in San Jose which I'll try to check out when I'm down there.

How about the shop that treated Steve Jobs fairly! wink


Yep, like I said, "approachable." That shop doesn't exist to me.

I have my doubts too. Not that the shop exists, but that Steve Jobs ever set foot in it… wink



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Re: Chinese pianos: next chapter coming
Norbert #2183569 11/16/13 07:54 PM
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How about if we leave the political aspects out of the discussion and restrict ourselves to discussing the pianos coming from China?


That's what [most] customers are doing more and more every day.

Just sold 2 uprights that competed head-on with pianos twice, even three times the price.

Price was not the issue.

Norbert





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