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Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: JoelW] #2178507
11/07/13 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Hahaha about the 15 year old girl... I think that maybe music is a bit like math really. I know, I know sounds so false, but let me explain. Everybody, I mean EVERYONE knows how to do simple addition. Less people know how to do long algebra, and even less people know how to do calculus. Basic addition represents pop music. Algebra represents slightly more complex, more respectable music, and calculus represents... Schoenberg. grin
BINGO!

This is where you get it wrong (according to me of course! grin).

No, classical music doesn't have to be complicated, doesn't have to be awesomely designed, formatted and with new techniques that any composer would die for!

I find such excitement in listening so much classical music and, while I do know what's going on, many times I don't even think about it. I know that I'm hardly a random sample, but if people can enjoy "Fur Elise", and also "Claire de lune", because it happened to be in Twilight, then why not everything else as well?

__________________________

I understand what you're saying about Schoenberg, but, believe it or not, untrained ears had much fun listening to Stravinsky, and famous movies have used contemporary, dissonant classical music without any issue. Kubric used Ligeti in his "2001: A space Odessey", while in the flim "Children of men" the work of Pederecki "Threnody for the victims of Hiroshima" is used so successful, that one has to wonder: what is it that makes film goers (which is a much wider crowd) to not mind, or rather enjoy such works, and concert hall goers cringe at the same works?

I understand that in the above examples context is everything, but then perhaps if we change the context of classical music (and wrapping and ideas while we're at it), then we may get something... wink

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Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: Nikolas] #2178512
11/07/13 03:11 PM
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I do think that some people are more predisposed (for want of a better word) to like classical music than others. And then there are those who are predisposed to enjoy the more, er, 'difficult' kinds of (so-called) classical music too. After all, there are plenty (probably the majority) of classical pianists who never touch anything more modern than Prokofiev and Bartók (and many don't even touch those two....).

I never heard any classical music until I watched the schmaltzy movie 'The Great Waltz' (loosely about J.Strauss II), when I was about nine. And I was hooked, unlike my parents or my brother. From then on, pop music, until then the only music I ever heard, began to sound more and more boring and ephemeral, despite the fact that I still didn't get to hear much, if any, classical music for some time after that.

I know many people who are regularly exposed to classical music, but only like the ones with simple tunes (like Eine kleine Nachtmusik and Ombra mai fu). And I also know someone who can't get enough of Gilbert & Sullivan, but doesn't like any other classical music. Not even West Side Story.

I think people's brains are predisposed - and partly, but only partly conditioned from young - to like certain genres of music. Or no music at all......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: neuralfirings] #2178514
11/07/13 03:21 PM
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To clarify, Nikolas, of course I found it funny...well, more amusing than funny, to be honest, but very, very sweet overall. I believe Joel understood about the general notion proposed, that the music that shall not be named is equally as appreciable as any and all other genres with proper experience to back it up, but was in part just playing the pernickety devil about the term "all" smile Um...I agree with you, naturally. I don't think it even requires that much work; it's about instilling an attitude, an ethos...about getting people to listen to what they hear; it's in there that Classi....*that* music's power lies...some people are too impatient for most of that kind of music, but I bet some of Alkan's pieces would be *adored*...I mean....um...he's got some seriously banging bass, dropping some heavy rhythms and, and not even bothering to pick them back up again after he's...done with them...*a lot* of the powerful, swooshy music makes its way into modern culture (Prokofiev's Montagues and Capulets, Wagner's Valkyries etc.) and is *enjoyed*...I think it really is about just eliminating the notion of Classical music; keep the music the same, keep the environment the same, but just somehow get rid of the notion that it's a scary, snooty-snob fest...um...the film StreetDance had the lead character, a break dancer (I think laugh ), utter the eponymous line: "Ballet? Nah, I don't really think that's for me miss" (or some such...you can't *honestly* expect me to remember; it's a terrible film {which I enjoyed immensely wink }) to which the heart-wrenching response: "How do you know if you've never tried it?" seems quite pertinent. If someone asks you: "What do you listen to?" and you say: "Grunge-flick Whizz-pop" they'll ask "Oh, what's that like then?"...they ask for more information, but when you say: "Classical music" normally they'll respond with an: "Oh right, with all the [mimic a violin/piano here]? Okay then...." Or, alternatively, "I don't know anything about Classical music". ...it's a much more closed interaction and it's in *there* that the answer lies...now if only I could remember the question.... wink Ah yes, Calculus, why don't more people like Calculus...attitude; tell someone to love something and they'll eventually resent it, or immediately tell you to p*ss off...teach someone how to love something and they'll love it always. Love's like that; unpurchasable, invaluable, neither redeemable nor transposable, but ever lovely and totes worth it laugh Life without love is not life at all, so teach someone how to love unfolding a map and eventually you'll have shown them the world...or something....pfft, you get the picture laugh It is a shame more people don't learn Calculus; it's kind of cute (in the most bizarre way possible laugh )
Xxx


Sometimes, we all just need to be shown a little kindness <3
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: neuralfirings] #2178517
11/07/13 03:32 PM
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I've got to try some of that "grunge-flick whizz-pop". Sounds exciting. grin

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Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: JoelW] #2178530
11/07/13 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Old Man
Originally Posted by JoelW
I'd like to make a point that 100% of people loving classical is impossible because not even 100% of people passionate about music. Many people would listen to the Nutcracker and say they enjoyed it and that it was very pretty a nice, but little would actually experience a strong interest in furthering their listening. People who are meant to love classical, or any type of music, will be gravitated to it by the sheer joy it gives them. People who truly have the potential to LOVE classical music are self-driven, just like any passion in life. Every passion is self-driven.

Of course 100% is impossible. That's not his point. What he's saying is that 100% are capable of loving classical music, not that they will.


I disagree. Many people don't love any music. Look, a lot of guys are passionate about sports, but I am not and I never will be, no matter how much I am submerged in it. Some people are that way about music, or cars, or anything.

Quote
repeated listening of the same work is essential. That's the "self driven" part that you mention.


Not all of it.

Quote
But you can't be "self driven" if you've not had a proper introduction. That's like asking a tree to be "self driven". The seed must be planted first. And those of us who love classical music and want to share the experience should be planting as many seeds as possible.


Define proper introduction? My "proper introduction" was a little electric keyboard with preloaded watered-down classical pieces.

I wouldn't dare try to imitate FSO, but I will quote her: *sigh*.

I think you're way over analyzing this, Joel. Yes, I think it's obvious that many people do not like music at all. I've even known such people.

Forget the numbers. Forget the 100%. Think of it as hyperbole. When a coach tells his team "we're going to kick their asses", he doesn't expect his team to literally hop on one foot and kick asses. It's just a way to rally the troops. I believe that's all Mr. Zander was doing.

You are one serious dude. If you're this serious at your tender age, you'll be insufferable as an old man! laugh

Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: neuralfirings] #2178531
11/07/13 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Nikolas
I find such excitement in listening so much classical music and, while I do know what's going on, many times I don't even think about it. I know that I'm hardly a random sample, but if people can enjoy "Fur Elise", and also "Claire de lune", because it happened to be in Twilight, then why not everything else as well?


There's a big difference between those pieces and "real" (<-- hate to use that term) classical music. The public only likes the catchy classical tunes.

Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: JoelW] #2178534
11/07/13 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Nikolas
I find such excitement in listening so much classical music and, while I do know what's going on, many times I don't even think about it. I know that I'm hardly a random sample, but if people can enjoy "Fur Elise", and also "Claire de lune", because it happened to be in Twilight, then why not everything else as well?


There's a big difference between those pieces and "real" (<-- hate to use that term) classical music. The public only likes the catchy classical tunes.

+1. Play anything by Mozart to the public and they'll tell you it's so simplistic and boring.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: Polyphonist] #2178536
11/07/13 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Nikolas
I find such excitement in listening so much classical music and, while I do know what's going on, many times I don't even think about it. I know that I'm hardly a random sample, but if people can enjoy "Fur Elise", and also "Claire de lune", because it happened to be in Twilight, then why not everything else as well?


There's a big difference between those pieces and "real" (<-- hate to use that term) classical music. The public only likes the catchy classical tunes.

+1. Play anything by Mozart to the public and they'll tell you it's so simplistic and boring.
hmmm...

Once again we "clash" because we think differently. Without any of us having any real factual info available, right? The difference is that I'm mentioning a wish and an assumption, while you seem to be giving us a fact... hmmm...

Now, I will agree that not every classical world is opt for everyone to enjoy. I don't think that the helicopter quarter would fit for a dinner party! But exactly as this wouldn't so wouldn't so much pop music (Miley wouldn't fit into a dinner party either)...

There is a place and a time for every piece of music. All that I'm saying is that if we, the lovers of classical music do not think it's worth spreading the word, we better just jump of a cliff!

I can't find any fault in someone for wishing for his music, or his performance, or a work by Chopin to be enjoyed by tons of people!

Can you (both of you actually, since I'm quoting myself and two others)?

Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: Nikolas] #2178554
11/07/13 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Nikolas
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Nikolas
I find such excitement in listening so much classical music and, while I do know what's going on, many times I don't even think about it. I know that I'm hardly a random sample, but if people can enjoy "Fur Elise", and also "Claire de lune", because it happened to be in Twilight, then why not everything else as well?


There's a big difference between those pieces and "real" (<-- hate to use that term) classical music. The public only likes the catchy classical tunes.

+1. Play anything by Mozart to the public and they'll tell you it's so simplistic and boring.
hmmm...

Once again we "clash" because we think differently. Without any of us having any real factual info available, right? The difference is that I'm mentioning a wish and an assumption, while you seem to be giving us a fact... hmmm...

Now, I will agree that not every classical world is opt for everyone to enjoy. I don't think that the helicopter quarter would fit for a dinner party! But exactly as this wouldn't so wouldn't so much pop music (Miley wouldn't fit into a dinner party either)...

There is a place and a time for every piece of music. All that I'm saying is that if we, the lovers of classical music do not think it's worth spreading the word, we better just jump of a cliff!

I can't find any fault in someone for wishing for his music, or his performance, or a work by Chopin to be enjoyed by tons of people!

Can you (both of you actually, since I'm quoting myself and two others)?


Nikolas, I DO have factual evidence. Well, not something I could show you, but I do know people who think of Mozart, Haydn, Bach, as being less human than the "more expressive" composers who came later.

Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: JoelW] #2178557
11/07/13 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Nikolas
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Nikolas
I find such excitement in listening so much classical music and, while I do know what's going on, many times I don't even think about it. I know that I'm hardly a random sample, but if people can enjoy "Fur Elise", and also "Claire de lune", because it happened to be in Twilight, then why not everything else as well?


There's a big difference between those pieces and "real" (<-- hate to use that term) classical music. The public only likes the catchy classical tunes.

+1. Play anything by Mozart to the public and they'll tell you it's so simplistic and boring.
hmmm...

Once again we "clash" because we think differently. Without any of us having any real factual info available, right? The difference is that I'm mentioning a wish and an assumption, while you seem to be giving us a fact... hmmm...

Now, I will agree that not every classical world is opt for everyone to enjoy. I don't think that the helicopter quarter would fit for a dinner party! But exactly as this wouldn't so wouldn't so much pop music (Miley wouldn't fit into a dinner party either)...

There is a place and a time for every piece of music. All that I'm saying is that if we, the lovers of classical music do not think it's worth spreading the word, we better just jump of a cliff!

I can't find any fault in someone for wishing for his music, or his performance, or a work by Chopin to be enjoyed by tons of people!

Can you (both of you actually, since I'm quoting myself and two others)?


Nikolas, I DO have factual evidence. Well, not something I could show you, but I do know people who think of Mozart, Haydn, Bach, as being less human than the "more expressive" composers who came later.

Exactly. Usually you hear something like this: "Debussy is the greatest composer ever. It's the most beautiful. Bach is just really boring and emotionless."


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: neuralfirings] #2178569
11/07/13 05:55 PM
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To be fair, listening to Bach is less of an emotional experience for me and more of an observant experience. I like just listening to what he is doing structurally. That is the kind of pleasure I get from Bach most of the time. Raw emotion doesn't occur as much for me with Bach than it does later composers.

Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: JoelW] #2178570
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Originally Posted by JoelW
To be fair, listening to Bach is less of an emotional experience for me and more of an observant experience.

Then you don't understand Bach. Sorry to be blunt.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: Polyphonist] #2178571
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by JoelW
To be fair, listening to Bach is less of an emotional experience for me and more of an observant experience.

Then you don't understand Bach. Sorry to be blunt.


Why not?

Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: neuralfirings] #2178573
11/07/13 06:12 PM
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It's important to note that doesn't make Joel any less musically valid; you yourself "don't understand" pop music, Polyphonist...maybe it's not about understanding but, rather, a tendency of the soul...? My best friend loves Bach more than any other composer and she's not a musician at all (she plays the mandolin grin)...so... laugh
Xxx


Sometimes, we all just need to be shown a little kindness <3
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: FSO] #2178574
11/07/13 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by FSO
It's important to note that doesn't make Joel any less musically valid; you yourself "don't understand" pop music, Polyphonist...

If we're going to start comparing Bach to pop music, I think I'm finished with this discussion, it having become totally detached from reality.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: JoelW] #2178576
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by JoelW
To be fair, listening to Bach is less of an emotional experience for me and more of an observant experience.

Then you don't understand Bach. Sorry to be blunt.


Why not?

Because of what you've just said.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: FSO] #2178577
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Originally Posted by FSO
It's important to note that doesn't make Joel any less musically valid; you yourself "don't understand" pop music, Polyphonist...maybe it's not about understanding but, rather, a tendency of the soul...? My best friend loves Bach more than any other composer and she's not a musician at all (she plays the mandolin grin)...so... laugh
Xxx


Correct.

There are many places in his music that DO get me very emotional, and I listen to him on the regular. So.. I don't understand him? Hmm..

Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: JoelW] #2178578
11/07/13 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by JoelW
To be fair, listening to Bach is less of an emotional experience for me and more of an observant experience.

Then you don't understand Bach. Sorry to be blunt.


Why not?

Because Bach, for all his mathematical ingenuity, for all his structural intricacy, is always-- always deeply emotional. Whether it's the B minor mass or the C major 2-part invention, the emotion is not just there, but is the primary component.

I wouldn't say you don't "understand" Bach (whatever that means), but you're missing out on the most important part of him.

All my opinion.


Beethoven op.110, Chopin op.27/2, Liszt Vallée d'Obermann
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: JoelW] #2178579
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Originally Posted by JoelW
There are many places in his music that DO get me very emotional...

That's not what you said before.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: beet31425] #2178580
11/07/13 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by beet31425
Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by JoelW
To be fair, listening to Bach is less of an emotional experience for me and more of an observant experience.

Then you don't understand Bach. Sorry to be blunt.


Why not?

Because Bach, for all his mathematical ingenuity, for all his structural intricacy, is always-- always deeply emotional. Whether it's the B minor mass or the C major 2-part invention, the emotion is not just there, but is the primary component.

+1


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: Polyphonist] #2178581
11/07/13 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by JoelW
There are many places in his music that DO get me very emotional...

That's not what you said before.


Well, let's take a closer look, shall we?

Quote

To be fair, listening to Bach is less of an emotional experience for me and more of an observant experience. I like just listening to what he is doing structurally. That is the kind of pleasure I get from Bach most of the time. Raw emotion doesn't occur as much for me with Bach than it does later composers.



Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: neuralfirings] #2178584
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Somehow this whole discussion has been thrown off track by the misunderstanding that Bach doesn't give me any emotion. Get it together, people.

Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: JoelW] #2178585
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by JoelW
There are many places in his music that DO get me very emotional...

That's not what you said before.


Well, let's take a closer look, shall we?

Quote

To be fair, listening to Bach is less of an emotional experience for me and more of an observant experience. I like just listening to what he is doing structurally. That is the kind of pleasure I get from Bach most of the time. Raw emotion doesn't occur as much for me with Bach than it does later composers.



As beet said, this shouldn't be the case ANY of the time. When you listen to the C# minor fugue from the WTC book 1, you shouldn't be sitting there in a state of bored intellectual analysis.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: Polyphonist] #2178587
11/07/13 06:23 PM
11/07/13 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by FSO
It's important to note that doesn't make Joel any less musically valid; you yourself "don't understand" pop music, Polyphonist...

If we're going to start comparing Bach to pop music, I think I'm finished with this discussion, it having become totally detached from reality.


FSO is simply saying that one does not need to emotionally resonate with music to understand it, in the same way that you, Polyphonist, understand pop music but don't resonate with it on a personal level. But this is a poor comparison on FSO's part because it assumes that I feel towards Bach the way you feel towards pop, which is not true at all.

Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: Polyphonist] #2178588
11/07/13 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist

As beet said, this shouldn't be the case ANY of the time. When you listen to the C# minor fugue from the WTC book 1, you shouldn't be sitting there in a state of bored intellectual analysis.


I did not say that. If anything it's an intellectually simulating, and like I said, pleasurable experience. I don't know why you're making these things up.

Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: JoelW] #2178590
11/07/13 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by FSO
It's important to note that doesn't make Joel any less musically valid; you yourself "don't understand" pop music, Polyphonist...

If we're going to start comparing Bach to pop music, I think I'm finished with this discussion, it having become totally detached from reality.


FSO is simply saying that one does not need to emotionally resonate with music to understand it, in the same way that you, Polyphonist, understand pop music but don't resonate with it on a personal level. But this is a poor comparison on FSO's part because it assumes that I feel towards Bach the way you feel towards pop, which is not true at all.

Just from the lukewarm way you talk about Bach, I can sense that you are not feeling the inner emotional impact of his music. I am sure, however, that you will, in time.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: JoelW] #2178591
11/07/13 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
If anything it's an intellectually simulating, and like I said, pleasurable experience.

Exactly my point. This is not the way I perceive it.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: neuralfirings] #2178592
11/07/13 06:27 PM
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Now that the thread has been thoroughly crashed, perhaps we all had better leave it at that.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: Polyphonist] #2178595
11/07/13 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by FSO
It's important to note that doesn't make Joel any less musically valid; you yourself "don't understand" pop music, Polyphonist...

If we're going to start comparing Bach to pop music, I think I'm finished with this discussion, it having become totally detached from reality.


FSO is simply saying that one does not need to emotionally resonate with music to understand it, in the same way that you, Polyphonist, understand pop music but don't resonate with it on a personal level. But this is a poor comparison on FSO's part because it assumes that I feel towards Bach the way you feel towards pop, which is not true at all.

Just from the lukewarm way you talk about Bach, I can sense that you are not feeling the inner emotional impact of his music. I am sure, however, that you will, in time.


Why do I need to be emotionally charged? You're starting to sound a little bit like stores with regards to Schiff. Remember what you said about preference/taste? Why can't I have my own tastes? What's with the dogmatic attitude? I MUST love this and that. Why?

Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: JoelW] #2178596
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by FSO
It's important to note that doesn't make Joel any less musically valid; you yourself "don't understand" pop music, Polyphonist...

If we're going to start comparing Bach to pop music, I think I'm finished with this discussion, it having become totally detached from reality.


FSO is simply saying that one does not need to emotionally resonate with music to understand it, in the same way that you, Polyphonist, understand pop music but don't resonate with it on a personal level. But this is a poor comparison on FSO's part because it assumes that I feel towards Bach the way you feel towards pop, which is not true at all.

Just from the lukewarm way you talk about Bach, I can sense that you are not feeling the inner emotional impact of his music. I am sure, however, that you will, in time.


Why do I need to be emotionally charged? You're starting to sound a little bit like stores with regards to Schiff. Remember what you said about preference/taste? Why can't I have my own tastes? What's with the dogmatic attitude? I MUST love this and that. Why?

As I said in the PM where you brought this up - have it your own way.


Regards,

Polyphonist
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