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Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: Polyphonist] #2178581
11/07/13 05:18 PM
11/07/13 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by JoelW
There are many places in his music that DO get me very emotional...

That's not what you said before.


Well, let's take a closer look, shall we?

Quote

To be fair, listening to Bach is less of an emotional experience for me and more of an observant experience. I like just listening to what he is doing structurally. That is the kind of pleasure I get from Bach most of the time. Raw emotion doesn't occur as much for me with Bach than it does later composers.



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Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: neuralfirings] #2178584
11/07/13 05:19 PM
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Somehow this whole discussion has been thrown off track by the misunderstanding that Bach doesn't give me any emotion. Get it together, people.

Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: JoelW] #2178585
11/07/13 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by JoelW
There are many places in his music that DO get me very emotional...

That's not what you said before.


Well, let's take a closer look, shall we?

Quote

To be fair, listening to Bach is less of an emotional experience for me and more of an observant experience. I like just listening to what he is doing structurally. That is the kind of pleasure I get from Bach most of the time. Raw emotion doesn't occur as much for me with Bach than it does later composers.



As beet said, this shouldn't be the case ANY of the time. When you listen to the C# minor fugue from the WTC book 1, you shouldn't be sitting there in a state of bored intellectual analysis.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: Polyphonist] #2178587
11/07/13 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by FSO
It's important to note that doesn't make Joel any less musically valid; you yourself "don't understand" pop music, Polyphonist...

If we're going to start comparing Bach to pop music, I think I'm finished with this discussion, it having become totally detached from reality.


FSO is simply saying that one does not need to emotionally resonate with music to understand it, in the same way that you, Polyphonist, understand pop music but don't resonate with it on a personal level. But this is a poor comparison on FSO's part because it assumes that I feel towards Bach the way you feel towards pop, which is not true at all.

Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: Polyphonist] #2178588
11/07/13 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist

As beet said, this shouldn't be the case ANY of the time. When you listen to the C# minor fugue from the WTC book 1, you shouldn't be sitting there in a state of bored intellectual analysis.


I did not say that. If anything it's an intellectually simulating, and like I said, pleasurable experience. I don't know why you're making these things up.

Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: JoelW] #2178590
11/07/13 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by FSO
It's important to note that doesn't make Joel any less musically valid; you yourself "don't understand" pop music, Polyphonist...

If we're going to start comparing Bach to pop music, I think I'm finished with this discussion, it having become totally detached from reality.


FSO is simply saying that one does not need to emotionally resonate with music to understand it, in the same way that you, Polyphonist, understand pop music but don't resonate with it on a personal level. But this is a poor comparison on FSO's part because it assumes that I feel towards Bach the way you feel towards pop, which is not true at all.

Just from the lukewarm way you talk about Bach, I can sense that you are not feeling the inner emotional impact of his music. I am sure, however, that you will, in time.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: JoelW] #2178591
11/07/13 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
If anything it's an intellectually simulating, and like I said, pleasurable experience.

Exactly my point. This is not the way I perceive it.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: neuralfirings] #2178592
11/07/13 05:27 PM
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Now that the thread has been thoroughly crashed, perhaps we all had better leave it at that.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: Polyphonist] #2178595
11/07/13 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by FSO
It's important to note that doesn't make Joel any less musically valid; you yourself "don't understand" pop music, Polyphonist...

If we're going to start comparing Bach to pop music, I think I'm finished with this discussion, it having become totally detached from reality.


FSO is simply saying that one does not need to emotionally resonate with music to understand it, in the same way that you, Polyphonist, understand pop music but don't resonate with it on a personal level. But this is a poor comparison on FSO's part because it assumes that I feel towards Bach the way you feel towards pop, which is not true at all.

Just from the lukewarm way you talk about Bach, I can sense that you are not feeling the inner emotional impact of his music. I am sure, however, that you will, in time.


Why do I need to be emotionally charged? You're starting to sound a little bit like stores with regards to Schiff. Remember what you said about preference/taste? Why can't I have my own tastes? What's with the dogmatic attitude? I MUST love this and that. Why?

Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: JoelW] #2178596
11/07/13 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by FSO
It's important to note that doesn't make Joel any less musically valid; you yourself "don't understand" pop music, Polyphonist...

If we're going to start comparing Bach to pop music, I think I'm finished with this discussion, it having become totally detached from reality.


FSO is simply saying that one does not need to emotionally resonate with music to understand it, in the same way that you, Polyphonist, understand pop music but don't resonate with it on a personal level. But this is a poor comparison on FSO's part because it assumes that I feel towards Bach the way you feel towards pop, which is not true at all.

Just from the lukewarm way you talk about Bach, I can sense that you are not feeling the inner emotional impact of his music. I am sure, however, that you will, in time.


Why do I need to be emotionally charged? You're starting to sound a little bit like stores with regards to Schiff. Remember what you said about preference/taste? Why can't I have my own tastes? What's with the dogmatic attitude? I MUST love this and that. Why?

As I said in the PM where you brought this up - have it your own way.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: Polyphonist] #2178598
11/07/13 05:39 PM
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You told me I wasn't a real musician unless I knew Beethoven's symphonies. Give me a break. You say that everyone will eventually come to realize that Bach, Beethoven and Mozart are the greatest, period. This is exactly the same as stores and Schiff. Let me quote you:

(in a sarcastic tone)

Yes. Everyone who has a clue knows that Schiff is the best. If you don't think he's the best, you're stupid. Because there's no such thing as an opinion or a preference.

You advocate personal taste when arguing with stores, yet you invoke a double-standard when it comes to what YOU think is true. Hahaha, no thank you.

Okay, we can be done.

Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: JoelW] #2178599
11/07/13 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Okay, we can be done.

Let's. (By the way, your argument is faulty, but let's just ignore that for the time being.)


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: neuralfirings] #2178602
11/07/13 05:45 PM
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Understanding and emotion are two separate things; neither is mutually exclusive or necessary for the other (though, arguably, one helps the other). A key difference is that we cannot learn to feel an emotion simply by practice, or homework. Our emotions rule us and it is through serving them we find our existence fulfilled...um...we cannot change our masters in this regard; if we do not feel emotionally overcome when listening to Bach then it is a fool's errand to search for that emotion. If it will come, it will come. We *can* pursue understanding though smile Very satisfying it is too...but when I cry the world does not cry with me; it is beyond the hopelessness of a wrecked vessel in a storm to assume I could control or command, direct or even determine the emotion of any other with whom my soul was not forever and indiscriminately entwined...um...it's sweet you feel that way about Joel, Polyphonist...aww... wink But seriously, for the most part we aren't each other and never will be; is that from whence this discrepancy is arising?
Xx


Sometimes, we all just need to be shown a little kindness <3
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: neuralfirings] #2178605
11/07/13 05:50 PM
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Agreed, FSO.

Polyphonist, this thread can't get anymore derailed than it already is. And no one is interested in the actual topic anymore. Like most threads, this thread went through various stages of evolution and hasn't had anything to do with the original topic for a while.

Please argue your case. Calling me wrong while failing to tell me why doesn't look very good. We aren't fighting -- this isn't hostile. Just talk it out.

Last edited by JoelW; 11/07/13 05:57 PM.
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: neuralfirings] #2178607
11/07/13 05:53 PM
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You are assuming that admiring a pianist is the same thing as admiring a composer.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: Polyphonist] #2178610
11/07/13 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
You are assuming that admiring a pianist is the same thing as admiring a composer.


What's the difference? Both are dealing with art.

Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: neuralfirings] #2178618
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Just as a side note; my grandfather, after being a Classical music enthusiast his whole life, said his opinion of Bach was an "interesting set of finger exercises". He much preferred Widor, Lefebvre-Wely...not Bach. Um...why is it people are allowed to insist that a love of Bach will develop over time? He was the *first* composer I really started depending upon..why is it we're not allowed to say a love of Stockhausen will develop over time? What's so special about Bach? Don't get me wrong, um, I *agree*; his music is about as good as it gets (almost), but it's still music. It's not like cardigans or Werther's originals; it's not a guarantee that you'll get into it as you get older. Also, I'm with Joel on the "what's the difference"; a composer is an artist, a performer uses a composer like paint to create their own art in the colour of that artist. If we're lucky, someone will sample that performance, put a small segment on repeat and put some drum beats and vinyl scratches over the top wink That's like..I don't know, um, drawing on the painting? Anyway, it's all *music*, but it's also *just* music. It's not emotion, it's not God, it's not a slightly undercooked baguette...it's music. How it affects us is *mostly* (Joel, seriously, if you mention subjectivity I will...oooo, I will likely laugh, but be reasonably disappointed shortly afterwards frown laugh ) personal, not universal...sad as that may be, we must recognise the limitations of such or lend ourselves to delusion, no?
Xxx


Sometimes, we all just need to be shown a little kindness <3
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: neuralfirings] #2178625
11/07/13 06:34 PM
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Interesting post, FSO. I always enjoy them.

I'd also like to bring another point up. What about Jazz musicians? They don't care about Bach, Beethoven and Mozart. They care about Fats Waller, Art Tatum, Duke Ellington, Jaes P. Johnson, etc. Is a musician like Oscar Peterson any less of a musician because he doesn't listen to the great gods of classical? Uh, no. It's a whole different world from classical. Neither world is better, only different. Very different. grin

What's better, red or blue? I rest my case.

Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: JoelW] #2178626
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Interesting post, FSO. I always enjoy them.

I'd also like to bring another point up. What about Jazz musicians? They don't care about Bach, Beethoven and Mozart. They care about Fats Waller, Art Tatum, Duke Ellington, etc. Is a musician like Oscar Peterson any less of a musician because he doesn't listen to the great gods of classical? Uh, no. It's a whole different world from classical. Neither world is better, only different. Very different. grin

What's better, red or blue? I rest my case.

Blue is better, and classical music is better.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Did recorded music replace individualism w/ perfectionism? [Re: neuralfirings] #2178627
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Red. I rest mine laugh Actually....I put that on impulse, but it's weird, I've been in kind of a blue funk for a few months now...pfft, it's almost like there's no objective and tenable anchor-point for this decision shocked Seriously though Joel, you can't get all "not *100%* of people enjoy music" and say "they don't care about Bach". Trust me, the Jacques Loussier Trio made a great deal of money out of their Bach to the Future record...and not just for the *excellent* pun laugh
Xxx


Sometimes, we all just need to be shown a little kindness <3
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